43-287B

[Rick]

I'm certainly no expert but sounds like the cylinder to bore alignment is an issue.

From Brad's measurement's it sounds like only 2 throats are aligned. What I would do were it me is isolate those two holes and shoot some groups using only those 2 holes. There should be an improvement even with the groove diameter restriction. Would be an interesting test.
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[waco]

From Brad's measurement's it sounds like only 2 throats are aligned.

So what's the fix for that problem?

 

[358156 hp]

You can also shoot groups single shot, to see what effect each chamber has on grouping. Six individual targets. Chamber #1, 1-6 shot group, chamber #2, 1-6 shot group, etc. Number the chambers with a paint marker before you leave home to help keep track. You would get bonus points if you can find bullets from each individual group, which would require six different target positions. Remember, this revolver has shot 100 yard groups in the 2-1/2 inch range before, just not with this particular bullet.

 

[Brad]

I may just load some 240 jacketed to verify what I can do.

Shooting groups using a single chamber for each is on the to do list.

 

[Rick]

So what's the fix for that problem?

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I would say nothing. It's a Ruger, a fine well built rugged revolver but it was never designed, built or marketed as a match revolver. This particular Ruger has done quite well, just not what Brad want's from it. No doubt well within Ruger's spec's.
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[Brad]

It has been a great tool for its purposes. This entire exercise has been good at developing a better understanding of what works in some cases.
I have some more ideas on bullet mods but weather is telling me it may be a while before I test them.

 

[Ian]

I could still be wrong but have been saying you have a lockup problem on one or more holes since you first started showing pictures of the smeared bullets. This problem may get worse 'under fire', but your checkamathingy showed that you probably have at least some static misalignment and I feel that's a lot of your problem.

I also think your bullets need more relief in the lube and crimp grooves, like the drawing I posted a few pages back. I got the bullets and gas checks you sent, will attempt to get some loads fired and bullets recovered this weekend.

Ruger gang-bores and gang-reams their revolver cylinders. They do not sharpen or replace all their reamers at once, only on an as-needed basis, one at a time. So you can have a sharp, new reamer right next to a worn or chipped one, and even the new ones may not be ground all exactly the same. The result is some holes elliptical, some undersized, some on size, some clean, some very rough.....and if there's a bad flute on the boring head, a whole chamber can walk.

 

[fiver]

how much wobble does the cylinder have?
I remember a discussion I had with James some time back and he talked about the cylinder needing to have enough play in it for the bullet to be able to pull it all straight.
he also showed me some groups where the bullets threw a semi-circular pattern kind of in a hypno wheel type fashion further away from the center of the target.
@ think of that as the center a the dot, but then the circular part spreads away from the circle.
the whole thing was caused by the cylinders being in different distances away from the center of the barrel as it went around the base pin


one other thing I see is the gas check is always the same diameter but the bullets are all riveted up.

 

[Rick]

The theory is that if it's not a line bored cylinder there will be some throats off center to some degree. The loose cylinder supposedly if free enough is aligned (centered to the forcing cone) by powder gas flowing ahead of the nose of the bullet as it enters the forcing cone.

Line boring is something that I think the mention of causes James physical pain. Aside from that I have fired many, many line bored FA's that were exceptional shooters, far better than I could shoot them.
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[Brad]

Wiggle room, right Ian?
This revolver is just tight enough to cause issues. A bullet this long makes it worse as one end is in the rifling and the other end in the throat. A shorter bullet might be better as it is free of the throat when entering the rifling.

Like I said, this is a great lesson in what doesn’t work.

 

[Rick]

A bullet this long makes it worse as one end is in the rifling and the other end in the throat. A shorter bullet might be better as it is free of the throat when entering the rifling.

Like I said, this is a great lesson in what doesn’t work.

I guess not no because that is what does work, it is the entire idea behind the front band bearing surface. It is what keeps the center line of the bullet aligned with the center line of the bore. That YOUR revolver isn't capable of the benefit does not make it a lesson in what doesn't work.
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[Brad]

Ok, it is a lesson in what doesn't work in some revolvers. Just shows that you can do things with a precisely built revolver like an FA that a stock Ruger won't handle.
Despite it not shooting as well as I would like I would still use the bullet for hunting to fifty to seventy five yards.

 

[Brad]

Oh, the stamp survive firing quite well.

 

[fiver]

I think this is a lesson in slump, and alloy flow through this gun as much as anything else.
look how it performed in the Marlin, that was a whole different system with different results.

the thing that is messing me up the most is that changing the design is not changing the outcome.

 

[Ian]

You need wiggle room when things can't started off perfectly straight for whatever reason. This may sound weird, but in a rifle I have never been able to statically-align a bullet better than I can make it align itself. That's my secret to high-velocity accuracy in a nutshell.

James gave me a lot of good information too, and I can second his notions on many things. The one thing he and I didn't agree upon was the SWC, I did fine with them and he hated them. He didn't want a revolver to lock up tight, even if it locked up really really really close to perfect on every hole. Others disagreed with him, but just like Fiver and I take a different approach to high-horsepower rifle loads, all I can say is there's more than one way to skin a cat and you have to figure out what works for the system you have.

 

[Brad]

Anyone have opinions on Taylor throating as a possible way to fix this problem? Just a question, no real plans.
Would giving the bullet a chance to align to the bore before fully engraving reduce the issue I am seeing?
A revolver needs to either be line bored accurately or have some slop in the cylinder alignment. Either way the bullet needs to go straight from cylinder to bore. This revolver is just tight enough to be causing some issues.
Maybe I will order a new cylinder hand and see how much I can stone it down to get some wiggle without altering the original.

 

[Ian]

That's no fun, Brad.

You've already gotten some pretty respectable groups from it just the way it is, maybe look at it from the reloading bench some more first and see about that wiggle room thing.

If you want to throat the barrel, maybe popping it out and putting it in your lathe might be a good option.

 

[fiver]

before you go whittling on the gun lets look at some hard numbers, and explore some other options.
then if you can pin down the exact problem, or find another solution I'd go that route.
you have other design options to try.
cylinder skipping.
all kinds of things.
the gun will also build some slop into itself as you shoot it.
you could make yourself a new base pin and give yourself some cylinder slop that way too.
the hand might be raising some of the cylinders upward or pushing on the side of the notches on others.

we have seen the gun wants to shoot we just need to figure out what it wants.

 

[Ian]

the thing that is messing me up the most is that changing the design is not changing the outcome.

that one has me a little confused, too. The nose groove Brad cut closed right up again with the rest of them. I'm going to try some this weekend in my Model 29 and see if I can p.o. my neighbors.

 

[Rick]

I agree with Fiver, cutting on the gun should always be the last option. Putting metal back is difficult. This a fine shooting Ruger, would probably outshoot many other Ruger's, I would sure think twice or more about cutting on it.