.45 Colt +P Loads for S&W 25-5 and New Ruger SAs

TXTad

Active Member
I have a 25-5 that has never made it to the range with me despite my having had it for 20 years. I'm expecting to rectify that soon, and hope to work up some 454424 and 45-270SAA loads for it and my other .45 Colt revolvers: a 625-7 Mountain Gun, two Vaqueros, and a Blackhawk Bisley. The Rugers are all the older, heavier ones. In addition to some easy loads, I want to load some +P loads, targeting 1,000 to 1,100 fps with these bullets. I want loads that I can use in any of these guns and do not plan to load any Ruger specific loads.* I've read Pearce's articles and I've seen others suggesting that the 23,000 psi loads are fine for the S&Ws as the same guns are chambered in .45 ACP. Well, 23 kpsi is +P for ACP, so why has that level been chosen as the top for these guns? I think that 21 kpsi would be more reasonable.

Some questions for discussion:

Are these guns really OK with a steady diet of loads at these levels?

Can 1,000 fps be reached at 20 to 21 kpsi?

* I may load some heavier loads for the Bisley later, but I'm going to mark the heck out of them and keep them away from the other loads.
 
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CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
You can do it. Many have. But your gonna shake the gun apart and seriously shorten its life. Very least knock it out of time.

Its simply not built for that.

Drop it back ta 900 ish and you wont ever realize the velocity loss on game. Then your gun will live a longer healthy life.

But a Red Hawk or a Black Hawk or Custom and load it ip if you have to have "more".

CW
 

TXTad

Active Member
You can do it. Many have. But your gonna shake the gun apart and seriously shorten its life. Very least knock it out of time.

Its simply not built for that.

Drop it back ta 900 ish and you wont ever realize the velocity loss on game. Then your gun will live a longer healthy life.

But a Red Hawk or a Black Hawk or Custom and load it ip if you have to have "more".

CW
Not bad advice. I'm pretty sure 9.0 gr of Unique under the 454424 and 8.5 with the 45-270SAA are fine for almost any need.
 

CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
I used to shoot alot of the "Ruger" loads. But then I bought my first Colt model P. Then a New Frontier. I became very "afraid" of one of those loads making it into those chambers. So I shifted to jacketed for all "heavy" and lead was always safe for all. Later still Freedom arms came along and I had a 454 Now NO MORE heavy 45 Colt at all.
Well I still liked hunting with my 45 Colt Marlins I learned QUICKLY that that 454424 over Unique about 8-850 was JUST AS LETHAL as any 250g Hornady or 260g Speer @ 1200!!! I could find no preformance difference and never got a single complaint from the deer or pigs.

If I have a need for more power, I use a "bigger gun".

CW
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
My first 45 Colt was a Uberti Cattleman 4-3/4". IIRC 9.0 x Unigue gave both 454190 and 454424 around 825-840 FPS. 10.0 x Herco did similar things.

These same loads from my Bisley Blackhawk x 7.5" run close to 900 FPS, about 10 FPS either side of that. The BH can crank the GC'ed #454490 to 1300 FPS. Great for megafauna, but gilds the lily for deer and recoil on one end is not unlike that on the other.

255 grains will work on most critters 100-300 pounds, whether on two legs or four. 800 FPS or 1000 FPS won't matter much to the target, the 45 Colt does its work with diameter and mass. A BUNCH of my friends used the 4" Model 25-5 as duty sidearms in the late 70s through the 1980s, and loved the things. One of these guys used it to stay alive one night in Oceanside, and it put down the threat decisively. Like the 357 Magnum, there are no 'Bad Loads' in 45 Colt.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I keep those loads in my Blackhawk. My Model 25 gets a steady diet of a 255 swc at 750 fps. Hints that it hits tend to stay hit.
I view the Model 25 as being a fat 44 special. Why wear a gun out when I have another that can eat those loads all day long with not worries?
 

david s

Well-Known Member
I use the RCBS 45-270-SAA cast at 285 grains at somewhere around 23000 PSI in my S&W Mountain Gun. The load data comes from the HANDLOADER #246 of April 2007. I believe the 23000 PSI load pressure limit in 45 Colt comes from the idea that according to S&W the 625 revolvers in 45 ACP are okay with the 45 ACP +P loads. Being the model 625 revolvers in 45 ACP and 45 Colt are chambered dimensionally similar (same diameter holes in the cylinder) it's assumed the 45 Colt revolvers are okay with the 23000-pressure limit also. All this is assumption though to the best of my knowledge. My load doesn't make it to 1000 fps, however.
 

BudHyett

Active Member
The concept of winning in stockcar racing is to go slow enough to stay in front and maintain first place. This means you do not tear up the equipment and can race again. There is a parallel in shooting the .45 Colt. I have the three levels of .45 Colt revolvers. I load the following:
  1. Level One: 6.5 grains Unique, 200 grain H&G 200 grain semi-wadcutter - Colt SAA, Colt New Service, Navy Arms Schofield
  2. Level Two: 8.3 grains Unique, 235 grains SAECO 954 - S&W 25-7, 25-5, 625
  3. Level; Three: 9.0 grains Unique, 230 grain RCBS -45-230-RN - Ruger Black Hawks
These loads shoot well sized .452 and wheelweight alloy. The different bullets make it easy identifying which revolver to use for a box of ammunition.

Note: The RCBS 45-230-RN Mold has an earlier version with a tapered nose and a newer version with a longer body. The newer mold is the one to use, noticeably better accuracy.
 

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TXTad

Active Member
The concept of winning in stockcar racing is to go slow enough to stay in front and maintain first place. This means you do not tear up the equipment and can race again. There is a parallel in shooting the .45 Colt. I have the three levels of .45 Colt revolvers. I load the following:
  1. Level One: 6.5 grains Unique, 200 grain H&G 200 grain semi-wadcutter - Colt SAA, Colt New Service, Navy Arms Schofield
  2. Level Two: 8.3 grains Unique, 235 grains SAECO 954 - S&W 25-7, 25-5, 625
  3. Level; Three: 9.0 grains Unique, 230 grain RCBS -45-230-RN - Ruger Black Hawks
These loads shoot well sized .452 and wheelweight alloy. The different bullets make it easy identifying which revolver to use for a box of ammunition.

Note: The RCBS 45-230-RN Mold has an earlier version with a tapered nose and a newer version with a longer body. The newer mold is the one to use, noticeably better accuracy.
I really do like 230-ish gr bullets for most of my .45 Colt and Auto Rim shooting. I have an MP 454-423 that I like when cast with the hollow-point pins.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Real numbers from my books .
RBH 7.5" .454 throats into.452 barrel no choke .
Win 45 Colts brass
CCI LPP
1968 Unique at 8.0 850 fps MV
1968 Unique at 9.5 1050 fps MV
1996 Unique at 825 and 1040 MV.
All data with round groove 454424@257 gr .
Average change minus 10 fps MV for Lee 452-255 @ 265gr and plus 10 fps for NOE 250 gr version of of the 454424 .
All loads were -15 to +25 fps MV.
The .450 groove 16" carb adds 175 and 210 fps to the above loads the 20" barrel had no appreciable gain over the 16" .

Velocity data varified over 2 alpha Chrony and a a Beta in series at 4100' MSL 85-92° direct read 27.65-27.95 inhg from certified aircraft altimeter and Google Earth map points .

Oddly enough 5.5 gr as a generic all bullet load in 45 ACP and S&W for the NOE version gave 925 fps in the untouched 1918 1917 S&W 5.5 with ACP and 800 in the Schofield reamed 3.5" 1918 1917. They gained about 35 fps MV in the RBH . I didn't Chrono the ACP in the 16" High Point carbine .

The 1-32" twist at 1220-1240 fps MV falls to transonic at 4500' at 80 yd and suffers aerodynamic upset . This doesn't happen in the 1-16" High Point but I haven't validated that they are supersonic and have the same gains as the Colts .

Lyman and Horn list 9.5 gr as. Max load for std 45 Colts and the 255 RNFP and LSWC .
 
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CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Lyman and Horn list 9.5 gr as. Max load for std 45 Colts and the 255 RNFP and LSWC .
This may be the birthplace of my 45 Colt/Unique data. I think any load safe in a Colt SAA is fine for the S&W 25-5 et al.

I would hunt down a 4" 25-5 and make it my own, but the 625 x 4" I got 3 years ago fills this niche quite capably. There's a lot to like about #452423 running 850-875 FPS from a 4" tube; #454424 does 825-850 FPS without any fuss & bother.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I haven't put out any heresy or propaganda for close to a week, and I don't want my edges to get dull--so here goes.

What follows herein is a spin-off from a thread on the CBA Forum I have contributed to that references the late John Kort's (AKA 'W30WCF') work with 44/40 WCF loads having 100%+ densities of RL-7 powder support the bases of cast #427098 bullets like black powder does/did to prevent telescoping bullets in tubular-feed Win M-1873 levergun magazines with pressure gradients that don't cause harm to rifles. 23.5-25.0 grains is the usual dosage of RL-7 with the 200-217 grain castings. I don't shoot 240 grain bullets in 44/40 WCF, so I can't comment on that niche of this stunt work that the CBA thread delves into.

I simply can't leave 'Well enough' alone. It didn't take long for me to apply this same logic sequence to the 32/20 WCF. Sure enough, 12.5 grains of RL-7 did good things for 115-120 grain castings in the Marlin 1894CCL--1250 FPS and decent grouping, and apparent black powder ballistics.

At this point I MUST caution that RL-7 (and IMR-4198) are NOT universal bulk black powder substitutes for BP cartridges! NOT AT ALL! IME in 32/20 and 44/40 the RL-7 behaves in the manner of 'Slow-for application' smokeless powders in these short-cased 140-150 year old calibers. Some of us might remember the stunt work a lot of us did during the heyday of milsurp powders, esp. the 50 BMG and 20mm fuels like WC-860 -867, and -872 in 30-06 , 38/55, and 45/70 applications. Specific to RL-7 and IMR/H-4198 (they are similar in burn rate), we must recall Ross Seyfried's formula for use of smokeless IMR-4198 as a black powder substitute--use the nominal black powder charge weight (E.g., 55 grains in 38/55 or 70 grains in 45/70) and multiply that figure by 0.4 in weight. IME this produces black powder velocities without the BP fouling and corrosion.

The foundation is laid and cured now--let's explore a bit. The 45 Colt is another caliber that came on scene about the same time the 1873 Winchester rifle and its 44/40 WCF cartridge did. Unlike the 44/40, 38/40, and 32/20--the 45 Colt was NOT chambered in companion rifles back in the day like it is now. I am a bit curious why that was the case; perhaps it has to do with the less-prominent rim on the 45 Colt case than those of the WCF cases.....dunno.

This thread concerned itself with safe loads in the S&W 25-5 and Colt SAA class of sideiron. OK, then--the 45 Colt shares a trait with the short WCF calibers (and many other BP calibers) in that it did NOT make a seamless transition to smokeless propellants around the turn of the 20th Century. Specific to the 45 Colt--black powder loads of 40.0 grains of 3F enabled 255 grain lead bullets to achieve roughly 1000 FPS in the 7.5" barrels of the SAA without causing harm to the mechanism. That is handsome performance, even in 2023 metrics. Using our usual run of smokeless pistol powders, the 45 Colt's safe limit has been set in the 825-900 FPS ZIP Code depending upon barrel length with the 255 grain castings; going with that usual run of fuels a velocity yield of 1000 FPS has been termed 'Ruger-level'......perhaps wisely so. Even at 825 FPS, the Lyman #454424 or #454190 is going to get a game animal's or goblin's attention in no uncertain terms. We don't need to 'Gild the lily', but none of us wants to leave any safe performance on the table either.

Let's take up Lyman's #454190--the 'Classic' 45 Colt cast bullet. It shares a trait with Lymans #311008 and #427098--lack of a crimp groove. Like its 31 and 44 caliber counterparts, 454190 was meant to perch on a solid-density column of compressed black powder and have a crimp set around its bullet ogive radius. Such an arrangement would prevent bullet setback in a tubular magazine, I would think. The 45 Colt used the same weight of The Holy Black as the 44/40 WCF to do its heavy lifting, too.

Hmmmm.....AFAIK, Mr. Kort did not extend his research past the 44/40 WCF caliber. In 44/40, 23.5-25.0 grains of RL-7 did the trick--support against bullets telescoping in the magazine as cartridges shunted down the tube, safe pressures for use in M-1873 mechanisms, and absence of BP fouling. (A note of caution, pursued a bit in the CBA thread--using 240 grain bullets in the 44/40, some pressure levels rose past comfy levels for a SAA or '73 application; bullet alloy composition and/or diameter are possible variables at play here).

I am pondering the use of RL-7 with #454190 et al in the 45 Colt at the 23.5-25.0 weight bracket. I have a Bisley Blackhawk that will shrug off pressure anomalies without much fuss and bother--if they take place. Maybe this is an answer for safe loads in the S&W 45 Colts and SAAs. It might also allow for use of #454190 in leverguns chambered in 45 Colt without bullets telescoping.

Bottom line--Mr. Kort came up with an 'Outside the box' solution to solve the issue of obsolete cast bullet designs lacking crimp grooves. Lymans #311008, #401043, #427098, and #454190 have tradition going for them.....and little else. They are a PITA more often than not, and they habitually cast undersize for smokeless applications. They are the 8-track tape deck of bullet casting in the modern age. But people still love them--me included.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I was unaware of Ross Seyfrieds 4198 study. Must have missed that entirely back in the day. Wonder what ever happened to him? Anyhoo, I'll have to see if I can fond more info on that type of thing.

Good write up bud!
 

462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
I am a bit curious why that was the case; perhaps it has to do with the less-prominent rim on the 45 Colt case than those of the WCF cases.....dunno.
Qualifier: I am not a .45 Colt nor 1873 Winchester expert.

That said and for whatever it's worth: I once read, in some disremembered magazine or Internet article, that the reason the 1873 Winchester was not chambered in .45 Colt was due to the toggled action not having enough distance of movement to accept the longer cartridge.

But, that begs the question: What did Uberti do to make their 1873 clones accommodate the .45 Colt?
Reduce the length of the toggles, to increase their fore-aft movement? Like Allen said . . . dunno.

I do have an affection for the .45 Colt and sent a box of 454190s down range, yesterday, propelled by 7.7-grains of Unique from the 4 5/8" Uberti Cattleman II. Fun stuff! Now that my gun downsizing has been completed, I yearn for a .45 Colt Rossi 24" sporting rifle. Can't warm up to a carbine . . .
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
1. Winchester was not going to build a rifle with another company's name on the cartridge.
2. Rim diameter was so small on the early cases, the extractor would not reliable extract the fired case, especially when dirty.
3. With the 44 WCF already in carbine and revolver, they didn't see much need for another pair.
IMHO
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
1. Winchester was not going to build a rifle with another company's name on the cartridge.
2. Rim diameter was so small on the early cases, the extractor would not reliable extract the fired case, especially when dirty.
3. With the 44 WCF already in carbine and revolver, they didn't see much need for another pair.
IMHO
Stands to reason, certainly.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
what Ric said.
they changed the cases rim diameter in the 50's? iirc so that the round could be chambered in a Lever rifle.

they didn't get all worked up about the 45 being used in the rifles since the 44-40 had pretty much dominated several south american wars without fail to get the job done.
if you wanted more the factory was putting out high velocity ammo for the 44 and the 38-40 for close to 50 years, so there wasn't really gonna be much gain except in bullet weight.
 
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RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
what Ric said.
they changed the cases rim diameter in the 50's? iirc so that the round could be chambered in a Lever rifle.
First major change was for the Colt Model 1909 New Service the military bought before the Model 1911 was in production. And you are right, sometime in the 50's - 60's they got a little bigger again. It may just have been for easy of case forming?
 
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