.452 200GR SWC

[TomSp8]

I have a question on what is a reasonable expectation of multi cavity mold variances. Been a while since I've posted on here, and had great
help in starting my casting adventures. I shoot more .45 acp 200gr lswc than anything else, so once my supply of commercial cast began
to dwindle, it was time to cast my own. (I got my feet wet with .38's, .44's, and .32's for my revolvers). I powder coat by the way. A fellow shooter gave me a Lee 2 cavity (200 gr) to get started with, and it worked great (until I ran them all through my new Lee push through .452 sizer and they all got sized to .451 .......I've since polished it to .452........).
But I quickly realized this 2 cavity was going to be too slow. I bought a used Lee 6 cavity with handles (their H&G version) very inexpensively to try out. I
still ladle pour and wanted to see if that was going to be a problem with a 6 cavity mold, and upgraded to a 20lb pot. Seemed to go okay, able to pour 3 cavities at a time with one scoop of lead. The mold casts great and the bullets fall out easily. They seem to weigh out between 200 to 205 grains with coww.
My question, however, is the bullet length variations per cavity. I'm getting bullet overall lengths from .353 to .367. And the longer ones are
giving me a problem with coal. I'm having to seat the bullet's shoulder nearly flush with the case mouth (like flush or .010 extended) in order to eject a live
round or the nose hangs up at the ejection port. (This is with a Ruger SR1911). The two cavity mold bullets (as well as my commercial cast) are shorter (around .335 and .345). I generally loaded with the shoulder about .025 or so out of the case in the past with any 200gr lswc and they passed the plunk test and ejected fine.
*Is this 6 cavity mold variation considered within expectations? I'm thinking of buying a brand new 6 cavity and not sure whether to try the
Lee again (since it was a used one after all), or maybe an MP mold? (I'm on a budget).
*Is my casting methods giving me the variances?
MP has a traditional lube groove option as well as a nlg style. I prefer the bevel base (I think) and the nlg version is only in plain base.
Any expert opinions to help out a fairly new guy? What is the "normal" length from the Lee 6 cavity?
What is the length of the MP H&G style? What is the length of MP's nlg style?

 

[bruce381]

dude way lot to answer
I shoot both the lee 200 SWC and the MP 68 200 SWC. I have KART Barrels and set OAL ay 1.245 MAX. I have not measured the bullet length lately
BUT when loaded the total OAL should be I do not know maybe plus/minus 4-5 thousands. Bullet length does not really matter the OAL Loaded length does. If to long and will not plunk test shortened them a bit. The MP is a GREAT mold wt. from front to back cavity on a 6 cav is <1 gr.
The LEE is also OK but I find the MP casts with less fidgeting . I think you are getting a littel sloppy on your LEE bullets as far a lenght goes maybe you have a parting mold line sticking up that will vary a lot if so do not worry about again just set your DIES to correct for you guns OAL like mine they like 1.245 MAX. Also may aswell add 231 about 5.5 grians OAL 1.245 Crimp to .470-.475 runs in everything shoots on a rest inch to inch and a half at 25 yards. Put a scope on this 1911 and shot 50 yards <2 inches les baer. Also all my 1911 are somewhat custom all have lowered and flared ejection ports so NO hanging up on ejection.

 

[TomSp8]

Thanks Bruce.
If I load these to pass the "plunk test" I can seat them at about 1.270. But in order for the nose of a live round to clear the ejection port, I have to seat them at 1.245 maximum, and that leaves the forward drive band/shoulder flush or nearly flush with the case. I use a custom seating plug that
seats off the shoulder and does not touch the bullet tip, so generally any of my swc loads extend about .025 out of the case. Generally, I'm looking at/for about .920 from rim to shoulder. I think maybe the noses are just too long with these for my gun, if I want to be able to clear/eject a live round. I've been loading for this gun for well over 8 or 9 years now and never experienced this before. MP does not give dimensions of their bullets so not sure if their "H&G" or their NLG bullets are any shorter than what's coming out of this mold. Or if this Lee mold is just out of spec. I have tried the stubby nosed bullets, like the H&G130, but I've always had some reliable feeding issues with them.

 

[JonB]

"multi cavity mold variances"
"I'm getting bullet overall lengths from .353 to .367"
.
I've never seen a Lee mold or any mold, with that much variance
Was this from the same pour/drop?
Did you weigh them?
Did you check out one batch of 6 from one pour/drop, ...and then another batch, and then another batch...to see if there is a consistent issue with the mold and which cavities are which size?
.
I suspect it's your technique.
One big thing with the Lee 6 cavity molds, you need to be careful to not squeeze the sprue plate handle when you are squeezing on the mold block handles to keep the mold closed.
.
Also, I'm not a fan of PC, so I will tread carefully here.
Are you sizing after PC?
what is the dimension of your PC'd bullet shoulder...which is the area I suspect your assembled rounds are interfering with chamber throat causing unreliable chambering. Have you checked multiple bullets for varied PC thickness?

 

[StrawHat]

Okay, disclaimer, I am not a 1911 kind of guy. Not even a self loading kind of guy. (That is why my 45 ACP loads feature a 235 grain full wadcutter bullet.) Why is it important to eject a live round? If it is to clear the piece, pull the magazine and it should drop down? Yes?

I mean, I get why it could be done but question why it is done.

Now, having mentioned I am not a 1911 guy, why not enlarge the opening in the frame?

But, if that kind of variation is normal for the mold, you have issues. I would cast a couple hundred, segregate them by cavity, and measure them. Find out if one or two of your cavities is out of specification.

Kevin

 

[bruce381]

Tom I will measure tonight the MP bullet OAL and base to shoulder and shoulder to nose tip best as I can. If seating off the shoulder YEAH I can see you may have a OAL variance why not try a "regular" seater that when set the OAL should be much more accurate cause OAL is your problem right? and or yeah grind the hood longer in the front by 25 thousands or so.

 

[bruce381]

"I have to seat them at 1.245 maximum, and that leaves the forward drive band/shoulder flush or nearly flush with the case"
Ok so that is kind of a normal 45 acp load that's where I set mine at. If they feed fine then you ar good why do you think they have to be longer?

 

[358156 hp]

You are experiencing a lot of length variance, even for a LEE. It sounds like you're trying to chase OAL, which is nearly impossible in some situations. One bit of advice I received from a bullseye shooter who shoots H&G 68 in a 1911 is to load semiwadcutters to a length of .920 from the case rim to the top of the shoulder of the bullet. The bullet should protrude from the case a very slight amount, which is plenty of room for a taper crimp. This will give you a constant length of bullet travel from the case mouth to the entry point of the rifling. Your pistol should be able to handle the nose length variance unless your mould is totally out of whack. I run H&G 68 H&G, and also SAECOs version of the H&G 68BB for 200 grainers and this always works well for me. Do you have pics you can post of some of your bullets?

 

[bruce381]

Tom the MP 200 SWC HG 68 measurements

Base to nose, .630-.633
Base to shoulder .303-.304

I think that is pretty consistant

 

[RBHarter]

I have an H&G #130 H&G 8 cav . It pours 196.2-196.8 at .453-.4535 .
I have an NOE 454-250 SWC 5 cav that only varies .7 for entire runs of 25-30# and close enough to cal .454 to not worry about sizing for the Ruger .
I've had good results with the Lee 452-200 and 452-255s in 6c I don't shoot them as much as I thought I would. They don't vary much from .454 from just a scuff to full contact in the .454 size dies . The 255 weigh 264-266 gr at a ratio of 1,2,3 heavy ,light ,and nominal the results are the same in the 200 at 196-201 in the reverse ratios .

 

[TomSp8]

Sorry for the lots of info here...and hope this makes sense. Okay, I actually had cast 3 bullets from each cavity a week or so ago (after full warm up) and marked them by cavity. Cavity 1 and 6 are shorter than 2 thru 5. As cast, not coated: (+/- .001) Cavities 1 & 6 are .654, .308 base, .347 nose. Cavities 2 thru 5 were pretty consistant at .663, .317 base, .345 nose. So actually, the noses are all pretty close, but the bases vary by about 9 or 10 thou. I generally seat swc's to a length of about .920 from case rim to shoulder to pass the plunk test with a little margin for error, and never really measured the bullet lengths themselves before loading, so my coal would be different (depending on the bullet) but didn't matter as long as they fed, and measured less than 1.250. With these Lee 6 cavity bullets, if I load them to the same .920 case rim to shoulder, I end up with a coal of about 1.260 which is too long to eject. When seated to a coal of 1.245 I wind up with only .903 from rim to shoulder. Now... the 2 cavity mold throws them: .638, .323 base, and .315 nose. Perfect for me. I wonder why the big difference between the 2 cav and the 6 cav molds? So, basically, I need a shorter nose than what this Lee 6 cavity mold produces. The MP measurements from Bruce is a big help. I will likely go that route.

 

[bruce381]

sounds like mold is way off, that said do not worry about base to nose just load them all at a OAL that works whatever that is is it.

"When seated to a coal of 1.245 I wind up with only .903 from rim to shoulder"

if it works what does it matter what the rim to shoulder is I do not understand why this dimension is a big deal? If it works thats what your gun mold combo likes stop there.

 

[TomSp8]

Well, I guess what I was trying to learn more about was about the nose lengths of various 200 grain swc's. I was taught to seat them as long as possible and to nearly touch the rifling, as long as they will plunk in and out of the chamber freely and be flush or just below flush of the barrel hood. I cant do that with these without being too long to eject. I think having a bit of shoulder protuding from the case would also aid in feeding. I've loaded numerous different brands of commercial cast and never really had this problem, so didn't know if this is, indeed, how these normally cast or whether I just have an out of spec mold, is all.
So, what I really wanted to know, based on my measurements, is this Lee 6 cavity mold out of spec with such a long nose? (Do my measurements match others from the same mold?)
Should the 6 cavity mold differ this much from the 2 cavity mold? (My measurements given above).
Fairly new to this, so I also wanted to learn/confirm that my casting technique wasn't somehow causing any variations. Now that I know the variations are cavity 1 and 6, I will assume it's the mold itself and not a casting technique issue. Even with the variations, it appears that the nose is longer than I want anyway.
Again, should the 6 cavity mold necessarilly match up closer to the 2 cavity mold?

 

[bruce381]

you are really wrapped around the axle, there is No standard for nose length but YES sounds like you mold is wacked compared to what I get with a MP mold. Yes bullet should be consistent yours are not so fix that first. I load my 45 acp out as far as I can and still pass plunk test. having a consistent bullet this is the way to go get a better mold and forget about base to nose etc, your mold or casting technique is BAD. post a picture might help of ALL 6 bullets from each cav.

 

[bruce381]

as far a ejecting others can correct me sounds like a LONG throat so you set them long as possible then they will not eject unfired?
Then set them shorted OR grind hood longer to allow them to eject all my 1911 have this feature. Or just live with shorter BUT reliable OAL.
Or get a better 1911 LOL.

 

[358156 hp]

Yes. This situation doesn't balance out. One other thing to remember is that LEEs design is not an exact copy of H&G 68, it's their interpretation of it. There is something messed up with that mould.

 

[JonB]

Yep, I believe your mold is WAY out of spec.
I am still curious about varying bullet weights, I'm guessing the long ones with what sounds like 0.009" extra Lead on the base, will be lots heavier.
If you were to find a COAL that works with these various lengths/weights, you will have to seat the heavier bullets deeper. So, what you will have is a batch of ammo where the powder capacity is reduced in some and those will have heavier bullets(both reasons will cause higher pressures), the others will have lighter bullets with more powder capacity. They'll probably shoot safely enough, but accuracy will suffer, even at pistol distances.
Bottom line, I'd return that mold...and move on to something better.
Good Luck.

 

[TomSp8]

Well, I agree that this mold will not work for me and what I want. Just didn't know if it this overall bullet length and nose portion length was normal for this mold, as in another Lee 6 cavity will give me the same result or not. The MP mold is not much more money and I will likely go with it, since you've confirmed its dimensions. The weights of this sample only vary between 202 and 205 grains. These are the 6 from cavity 1 to cavity 6 from left to right, although I doubt you'll see any variances just by looking at them, with one from the 2 cavity mold, on the right end, and a commercial cast nlg for reference. I used a fired .44 special case that just cleared the nose, for measuring (not exact but close and repeatable). Thanks for all the suggestions, and I guess we can conclude this thread.