A New Vison for an Old Concept

[Petrol & Powder]

In another thread that focused .....on low powered scopes, the topic of the Scout Rifle entered the discussion. Most of us are familiar with Jeff Cooper’s criteria for his Scout rifle. However, that concept was developed several decades ago, and the world is a little different today. What if we altered the criteria a bit made it more like the “do it all” rifle for today, as one member suggested?

We no longer need the forward mounted scope and can use a detachable magazine. Stainless steel and synthetic stocks have become far more available, let’s take advantage of those materials. There are some AWESOME new low powered optics available in today’s world, let’s explore those. While there might be some semi-autos that make the weight and reliability cut, lets stick to manually operated repeaters.



So here are rules:

Eliminate the requirement for the forward mounted scope. Max scope power of around 4x, 2-3 power perfered. Can be 1x and just a red dot.

Repeating action but must be manually operated, no semi-autos.

Have a detachable box magazine.

A maximum unloaded weight for the rifle and all accessories of 3.5 kilograms (about 7 pounds 11.4 oz.)

Back up iron sights.

A maximum overall length of 1 meter (roughly 39”)

A useful sling,

Synthetic stock

All weather resistant metal such as stainless steel, or some weather resistant finish on all parts.

Capable of 2 M.O.A. accuracy.

Chambered in a short or intermediate length cartridge with a minimum bullet diameter of 7mm.

***************************************************

I envision something along the lines of a SAKO 85 with a synthetic stock, all stainless-steel action/barrel, chambered in 7mm-08 or 308 WIN. Equipped with one of the modern low power scopes with an illuminated reticle or maybe a red dot?

WHAT SAY YOU?

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I had one for a while & sold it.

Got the idea a lever scout would be better. Spent 100$ on a rail... Its back in its box on the shelf.

I have two Shotgun barrels utilizing this setup. Both cantilever setups. A Rem 870 & a 835 Mossy. These are fine & I like them.

 

[Michael]

Sounds like an 870, etc. with an 18" slug barrel, matte finish and a saddle mount for the optics could make for some good fun with low recoil/lighter slug loads around 11-1200fps in line with trap loads. Besides we all need a slug mold or two.

 

[fiver]

i was thinking model 94AE with a red dot, or one of those inverted chevron lighted 1X scopes the army uses on their M-4's.
good nuff far nuff, but it doesn't have a detachable magazine,,,, just one you can re-fill as you go.

speaking of the M-4 one of those with a 300 BO/X39 upper sounds like what is being described.

 

[RBHarter]

Sounds like an 870, etc. with an 18" slug barrel, matte finish and a saddle mount for the optics could make for some good fun with low recoil/lighter slug loads around 11-1200fps in line with trap loads. Besides we all need a slug mold or two.

Now you've described the fall turkey special just in case that buck I watched all summer wanders by gun .

I built around a gifted action . 2-7×32 eer to clear enblock clips with a laminated salt n pepper stock . It's currently a 7×6.8 SPC that will push a 120 SP north of 2400 fps and a 140 PP 2250-2300 . That makes it awfully close to everything a 7-30 will do and there's room for that ream in 30 Rem brass which would max it out data wise very close to the 7-08 .
Scoped or not there's just no good way to carry a Carcano.

The other toy is a 45 Raptor in a 95' Mauser .6# , 17" barrel , stripper clips . Iron sights .

There's an Axis that may yet become a real rifle just a bolt head and barrel . There's bottom metal to use mags and donor barrels in 243,257, 270 , 06' and 451 . The model in the back of my mind revolves around a conventional western wrist grip AR style tube and butt with an AR 10 mag well and the fore end being trapped between 2 barrel nuts indexed to the butt stock and magwell assy . A 4x duplex has a certain appeal a cut barrel would only taper to .750 allowing the use of AR gas block/rail/sight options . The goal advantage would be that excluding the 2nd barrel nut nothing would or could touch the barrel and the AR bits could be used as tuning devices . Sight choices are limited only by what fits a 1913 or Weaver rail . Should it need to be suppressed there's that A2 sight . Of course if you happened on a large shank long action there's I'm sure a 50 in a WSM case and everything ever put in a 300 Savage , 308 , or 284 case that will still fit in an AR 10 mag. I bet there's a Beta drum out there too . Milled anodized aluminum and Melonite is pretty all weather .

 

[Petrol & Powder]

 

[Winelover]

That detachable box magazine is the snafu, for non semi auto. Neglected to establish minimal round count.......should be at least ten if going detachable..........otherwise no advantage.

Alternate criteria should be ambidextrous. Not all of us are right handed.

My vote goes to a lever action carbine with a rail that allows either forward or conventional mounting of optics.



I can and do switch from the 1.75 x 5 Leo variable, with lighted reticle, to a Trijicon red dot reflex. Or just remove the scope/site and use the peep sights, to shave weight.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I think 4 or 5 rounds in a bolt action rifle with a detachable magazine gives an adequate number of follow-up shots with the ability to reload a second magazine into the rifle if needed. Or maybe the second (spare magazine) could be slightly greater capacity ?


The original Scout Rifle concept often utilized a military bolt action that could be reloaded via a stripper clip. So, the reload was generally only be 5 rounds.

Lever guns are ambidextrous, but bolt actions can be had in left-handed versions as well.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

And Winelover - I really like that 1.75 x 5 Leo variable, with lighted reticle. That's a good example of the modern high tech optics I was referring to in the OP.

 

[Winelover]

I think 4 or 5 rounds in a bolt action rifle with a detachable magazine gives an adequate number of follow-up shots with the ability to reload a second magazine into the rifle if needed. Or maybe the second (spare magazine) could be slightly greater capacity ?


The original Scout Rifle concept often utilized a military bolt action that could be reloaded via a stripper clip. So, the reload was generally only 5 rounds.

Lever gun are ambidextrous, but bolt actions can be had in left-handed versions as well.

Yep, but they are very limited, in terms of models. As well as, calibers. Mine are left handed. None with detachable magazines.

 

[Rick H]

Too many arbitrary limits in the question. Set performance standards and let each determine what best meets their needs. No need to eliminate high powered scopes.....they would eliminate themselves unless they could better perform the job at hand. Same with semi autos. If there is one that can better perform the job so be it. What are we asking the rifle to do? Take on all comers and game under 800lbs. within 400yds. in all weather conditions? Weight limits? I might find a 10 lb rifle excessive but there are some who can handle it easier than I do my contender carbine.
Set performance parameters and let the form follow the function. This was the purpose of the original Practical Pistol shooting competitions. Test what works. Like most competitions the practical side got upstaged by the gamers. We need adequate definitions of what we want our weapons to do and a crucible to put our ideas to the test.
This is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, A dependable rifle that doesn't toss brass into the weeds.
Compact enough to be carried, maybe while performing functions other than hunting. So less than 1 meter overal.
Lightweight enough to be carried while performing functions other than hunting, so 3.5 kilos max.
Accuracy adequate to engage man size targets out to 300 yards. So 2 M.O.A.
Useful bullet weight to be effective on American game animals out to 400 yards and practical within the 3.5 kilo rifle weight. So, min bullet diameter of 7mm
A sling, because the rifle will need to be carried and a sling that can be useful in some shooting positions.
Capable of at least 4 shots before needing to be reloaded. Capable of being quickly reloaded - So a detachable box magazine.
Highly weather resistant - So Stainless Steel or some high tech finish
Optics capable of fast close range shots, maybe in low light but still useful at the rifle's max practical range on intended targets.
Back-up iron sights so the rifle can still be used if the optics are damaged.

 

[Rockydoc]

Cycling a bolt action while still mounted to the shoulder is much more difficult than cycling a lever or a pump action.
This requirement for 400 yard capability just would not fit my requirements. I never shoot at anything that far away.

Does a Browning Lever Rifle have a detachable magazine? One of those in 308 or 7-08 would be my choice.

 

[Missionary]

I would add capable of having a can mounted.

 

[popper]

My Henry 308 has a detachable metal mag AND a lever. It does not have a low power scope. Why a low power on a high power rifle? I had a Seeall and a RD on a BO pistol. RD fell apart, wouldn't hold zero. Seeall was too slow to aquire target. Put a fixed power Nikon on it. Scout scope was, as OP pointed out, for stripper clip loaded rifle - and try to find a good scope with enough relief to be used as such now.

 

[Jeff H]

I'm disqualified right outta the gate. My choice would have been a 6.5.

Maybe one of the unspoken criteria would be that the chambering were "common," accessible, maybe even a current military round, etc. If I were without and someone handed me a 308 or 7mm-08 and that's what I had, I'd not complain or feel at a disadvantage.

I'd get my brain all twisted up trying to make such a decision again, so I'm just "spectating" on this one.

Lots of fascinating and intriguing choices being presented though.

 

[RBHarter]

Once long ago .....
I loved the idea of the RXP100 and Savage Striker . There were lots of offered cartridges but mostly they were a single shot in 223 or a light varmint cartridge.
I wanted to buy a new unassigned Savage action and stick it in a Striker pistol stock with an 18" barrel and a classic varmint forend . The idea was to save the weight of the butt with a 5 shot medium cartridge modern rifle .
With the stuff available today a 6.8SPCII with a 1-10" , 16" barrel , with a flash hider brake or supression , and 5,10,20,25 round mags isn't even an exotic idea . It is a very compact rifle about 20" over all and long enough to get everything out of the cartridge. By it's nature halo , red dot , or pistol scoped is the way . Chest holster or backpack isn't out of the question but a sling from grip to tip or single point would work well . There's no means for the Corps sling wrap arm lock but a bipod or mono pod becomes practical .
Sort of a Buntline Special in an AR family cartridge with a sling and modern sights . Compact , almost as handy as a pocket , capacity as desired with 120-130 gr 2300 fps MV bullets makes 300 yd engagement possible though at a minimum . 200 yd is a solid 250-300# game taker still . Recoil management might be interesting even with a brake .
One of those foam composite 12oz stocks might really shine here .

I hadn't even thought about the potential of a bullpup straight pull platform . The Savage beta testing doesn't seem to have worked out but the K31(?) seem to remain strong.

I wonder if a 760/7600 could be bullpuped . Removable box mags simple stamped design adaptable to 10-15 rounds of 06' family or 284 Win in the short action . Adapting AR 10 mags shouldn't be too difficult .

Now I've gone full circle back to UK parts for a slide action AR .

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Cycling a bolt action while still mounted to the shoulder is much more difficult than cycling a lever or a pump action.
This requirement for 400 yard capability just would not fit my requirements. I never shoot at anything that far away.

Does a Browning Lever Rifle have a detachable magazine? One of those in 308 or 7-08 would be my choice.

Yes so does the Henry Long Ranger and one iteration of the Savage 99.

 

[Glaciers]

Well the scout rifles have interested me for a long time, but for where I live puts different criteria on the rifle for me. First off Winelover beat me to it. I think for a lot of country the lever scout rifle comes close to filling the bill right out of the box.
Very nice setup John.
My first rodeo in this direction came after doing a Brown bear hunt down in the Wood Tikchik which is a string of 7 lakes northeast of Dillingham. Big bears. So I was carrying a 458 win mag with a Lyman receiver sight that I had built. I was young and strong and would sleep in a mud trench or a snow bank and wake up shake it off and carry on. This rifle had accounted for a couple of black bears in the late 70’s so I figured it was about right stuff with Hornady 350 grain loads for Brownies in 1980.
But The point is that a 11 pound rifle plus ammo in the mag didn’t faze me. Usually. But, 12 pounds, 46” long and crawling through thick alders after a Bear that I knew was there, kinda puts a different perspective on “what’s the ideal rifle for dangerous critters in tight, close brush conditions. Plus I wasn’t interested I a bear myself, but I was guiding my Father. I realize it was tough conditions for me but I was supposed to be looking out for his butt as well..
When I returned to town I started building a new rifle. Had to be light, short, and with lots of power. Wasn’t into high velocity. I really liked the 45 caliber and the heavier bullets.
So in hunting for the best platform I was interested in the Remington 600 in the 350 Remington Mag. Joe our pilot on the Bear hunt was a registered guide but not an. active guide. Anyway Joe shot a Remington 600 in 350 mag. I liked it’s size, weight and how it handled. Just needed more bullet. So I started hunting for a 600 to rebarrel into something more. One Smith suggested necking up to 375 or 416. That was headed in the right direction, then another smith suggested the 458x2 American. Now we were talking.
Long story short, I found a 660 in 6.5 mag for a good price, varmint calibers sold cheap up here, so I had a good start. Rebarreled that rifle ending up with a 39”, 7.5 pound, 1x4 Luepold, handy, powerful package. It will do any job in this country. Had to use Barnes Originals in 300 and 400 grain semi Spitzers for reliable cycling. 400’s at 2100 fps with a good ballistic’s. What’s not to like. The 458x2 American now sports a Luepold Vx 1x6 power scope. Field of view at a hundred yards was over double 1x4 Luepold offers.

Pictured with my rebored 35 Whelen Featherweight.

458x2 with Barnes Original and a 500 grain LEE

But, that’s a little off course. Different requirements for different areas and people. But get back on track I’m a levergun revolver guy first. But here’s another “but” I tried the Ruger bolt scout rifle in 308 when they first came out. It was ok, but (there’s that but again) it was going to be expensive when all up ready to go. Everyone said this was the ticket. Not for me. Gave the rifle to my brother.
My idea after messing with the Ruger was a Winchester 94 in 30-30, 32 SPL, or 38-55 would be the way to go. Here it is again, but, I’m not a fan of scout scopes or scopes in general on a lever. I’m a receiver sight guy. Low light remove the sight disk. Low light conditions are not really a problem here as you will have 16 hours of light depending. A lever holds a bunch of cartridges and if you don’t have enough then you have more problems then you might be able to deal with.
So I dismissed the angle eject 94 because they were different. I Don’t except change very well. But I got a 30-30 AE 16” trapper on trade. Figured I’d trade it off at some point. So it sat in the corner for a few years, not putting that in the safe with the real Winchester’s. But then I shot it and it’s pretty sweet in that trapper length. So I put a Luepold 1x4 on it that was in the drawer, nice the scope was mounted where it should be. But I took the scope back off because it is super handy just right out of the box. Was thinking about putting a Skinner receiver sight on it but at $100, no.

Trapper 30-30 AE on top and Standard carbine 30-30 that’s now a rebored 38-55
Lots of options a person can go with, but I prefer KISS.

 

[todd]

I'm disqualified right outta the gate. My choice would have been a 6.5.

Maybe one of the unspoken criteria would be that the chambering were "common," accessible, maybe even a current military round, etc. If I were without and someone handed me a 308 or 7mm-08 and that's what I had, I'd not complain or feel at a disadvantage.

I'd get my brain all twisted up trying to make such a decision again, so I'm just "spectating" on this one.

Lots of fascinating and intriguing choices being presented though.

i'm disqualified too. mine would be a Winchester m94 in 35/30-30 with a Peason scope mount and a Williams FP sight.

sorry...i not sorry...lol

or i could go with a 1891 Argentine Mauser in 7.65x53 with an old Lyman/Redfield aperture(i have a Redfield mounted) and i'll mount a 2-7xEER.

or i could go with a 1898 Springfield Armory in 30-40 Krag with an old Lyman/Redfield aperture and side scope it.

or i could go with a 98 Mauser(1944) in 8x57 with a Redfield aperture and scope with an EER.

i have a '16 Spanish Mauser action and a '95 Chilean Mauser action that i could turn it into a Scout Rifle, but my war days are way behind me now.