Alloy for expansion

[JustJim]

I'm putting together plans for a lead order, and since I'm ordering--rather than scrounging--I figured I'd get exactly what I need for my use from the get-go. The problem being, I'm not sure what I need. . . . What lead-tin alloy would be best for expansion at velocity ranges of 950-1100 fps? Bullets would be SWC, from handguns in the .357-.44 range.

Thanks,
Jim

 

[Ian]

SWCs cut holes. If you want expansion, go with a different bullet design.

As for caliber and velocity, Elmer liked 16:1. I'm good with roofing lead bumped with a little bit of WW and tin, or something like 3 parts pure lead to one part #2 alloy.

 

[Rick]

I shoot stick on WW+ 2% Sn in the 45 ACP up to about 1,000 fps. 8 BHN and outstanding expansion in water. Water though is a tougher medium than flesh but this should work quite well. This was at 950 fps fired at 10 feet straight down into 3 feet of water. Lyman #452460.

EDIT: I had typed "clip on" weights. Sorry, it was stick on weights+2% Sn. I corrected it in the text.

 

[fiver]

25-1 with a hollow point will do the job at your speed.
a flat nose... maybe some mush.

you gotta make the velocity, meplat, and alloy work together.
too hard,, all penetration.
too soft,,, skidding.

just my take on the matter.
i'd go with less tin in my ordered alloy and get some tin to work the alloy up till you find your balance.

 

[Bret4207]

Something soft, like Ian said, not more than 16-1, or softer. If you HP the SWC you get the best of both worlds in theory- it should expand, but if it doesn't you at least get a cutting design to a degree. Obviously, the more you push it the easier it is to get some expansion. In the 357 that's a snapper. In a 44/45 you already have a pretty good diameter.

Remember that lead heavy alloys cast a little different than those with more Sn/Sb. Might have to alter your habits a little.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

All My testing was done with a HP mold. So I would suspect slight softer across that range for a solid.

I agree with Rick 8 bhn was good for 875-1000 in my 380 & 45 acp loads.

20:1 is my go to for a 1100-1200 fps

16:1 for 1175-1300

10:1 for 1250-1400 ish

Again hp designs and even then bigger hp are more exp and smaller less.

Id suggest ya stay pretty soft is ya consistently expect expansion. (At that velocity)

My tesing was Water jugs and wet news print as velocity increased.

CW

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I agree it needs to be fairly soft.
The classic "FBI Load" in 38 Special [158 grain lead SWC-HP, driven at +P velocities] uses a very soft bullet in the factory loads. With a 4" barrel those factory loads can just barely get into the 900 fps territory. I've pulled a few bullets from the factory loads (Remington R38S12) and they are very soft, maybe in the 8 BHn range? And it has a fairly agressive hollowpoint.

1:30 tin/lead is about 9 Bhn
1:40 is about 8 BHn

Given the intended velocities of 950-1100 the OP quotes, I think you may be able to go with a slightly harder alloy but I would stay under 11 BHn.

On a side note, I personally think bullet expansion is over played. Bullet expansion is just the icing on the cake. Penetration is a far more important goal to achive, expansion just improves performance ONCE the bullet reaches where it needs to reach.
Too much early expansion will limit penetration. And over expansion in general can break the bullet apart, resulting in less mass and also limit penetration. It's easy to get excited about making perfect lead mushrooms but the reality is that shape isn't a good measurement of performance.

 

[358156 hp]

I'm putting together plans for a lead order, and since I'm ordering--rather than scrounging--I figured I'd get exactly what I need for my use from the get-go. The problem being, I'm not sure what I need. . . . What lead-tin alloy would be best for expansion at velocity ranges of 950-1100 fps? Bullets would be SWC, from handguns in the .357-.44 range.

Thanks,
Jim

"What will you be shooting that you require expansion?", asked Bob delicately. As fiver mentioned, there are a lot of variables to work with here. For example I refer you to my avatar. One bullet is a 358439 Lyman HP with a small cavity, the other is a 358156HP that has a large cavity. I understand you're not talking about hollowpoints, but the pic is a good example of two different bullet designs, tailored to different performance. I have the same designs with reverse sized HPs as well.

Sometimes, the best expansion is the pre-expanded type, larger meplats and/or calibers come to mind. and thats certainly more reliable in some instances. Solid cast bullet expansion is certainly possible, but much depends on your goals. 30:1 lead/tin should show some expansion in some medias, but you may very well need to start with that, then juggle your variables to get the performance you need. I know an ever growing number of people who have given up on bullet expansion with shorter barrels and are moving to wadcutters. If you're hunting medium game, then your quest gets much easier.

 

[JustJim]

Most of this order (120# or so) will be 30:1 for my trapdoor. There, I'm playing with BP and relying on some bump-up of the bullets.

Normally, I use WWL (or whatever else I scrounge) for pistol bullets. Works OK, but repeatability can be a problem at times. I just thought I'd start with a known quantity for a change. I think I'll just order more 30:1 and add tin as needed.

 

[358156 hp]

Do you powdercoat? I haven't been avle to gel test my theory yet, but it seems to me that PC might just delay initial expansion for a microsecond, allowing just a mite more penetration before expansion begins. This is one of my hairbrained schemes that might just have some practicality to it. What I'm lacking right now is time to do things like this.

 

[Ian]

Do you powdercoat? I haven't been avle to gel test my theory yet, but it seems to me that PC might just delay initial expansion for a microsecond, allowing just a mite more penetration before expansion begins. This is one of my hairbrained schemes that might just have some practicality to it. What I'm lacking right now is time to do things like this.

If PC does delay expansion slightly (I have no idea if it does or doesn't) I think the reason would be the slippery surface penetrating more easily than and uncoated bullet rather than the coating acting as a containment jacket which based on my bullet trap tests makes me sure it doesn't.

Coated bullets penetrate oiled sawdust much farther than uncoated bullets of the same type when fired at velocities which force nose expansion, FWIW.

 

[Bret4207]

Do you powdercoat? I haven't been avle to gel test my theory yet, but it seems to me that PC might just delay initial expansion for a microsecond, allowing just a mite more penetration before expansion begins. This is one of my hairbrained schemes that might just have some practicality to it. What I'm lacking right now is time to do things like this.

Like a Nyclad? They were pretty good in social situations.

 

[Bret4207]

If PC does delay expansion slightly (I have no idea if it does or doesn't) I think the reason would be the slippery surface penetrating more easily than and uncoated bullet rather than the coating acting as a containment jacket which based on my bullet trap tests makes me sure it doesn't.

Coated bullets penetrate oiled sawdust much farther than uncoated bullets of the same type when fired at velocities which force nose expansion, FWIW.

Interesting!

 

[RicinYakima]

Like a Nyclad? They were pretty good in social situations.

When I was assigned to arson investigation supervisor, that was the latest thing. Investigators could get them and qualify and use them. Never knew why they didn't fly.

 

[358156 hp]

This is the one scenario I haven't seem YouTube videos on.

Hey Walter!

 

[fiver]

Elvis ammo done a couple of Gel tests with some hollow point 30-1 bullets i worked up with Charlie over to the other site.
they were gas checked 30-1 alloy and pre-programmed to open hollow points with a nose filler [cheap caulk]
they worked just as i told him they would from 700-900 fps.
the pre-programming was done with a modified screwdriver tip in a 4500 lube sizer.

 

[Bret4207]

When I was assigned to arson investigation supervisor, that was the latest thing. Investigators could get them and qualify and use them. Never knew why they didn't fly.

IIRC they had a real good rep, and then the whole "Teflon Coated Killer Bullet" thing came out. As with the "Black Talon" ammo, the media hype caused all sorts of issues. I've still got half a box of Nyclad 38 ammo. I use it in my carry gun sometimes. The few I've sacrificed to scientific/ballistic curiosity indicated they do expand out of a sub 2" barrel at 25 feet in loose sand...in case I'm ever attacked by a pile of loose sand!

 

[Rick H]

I have a box of Federal NyClad 357 ammo left from a batch that someone gave me. I wasn't impressed, seemed rather mild compared to the 140 gr. Winchester Silver Tips I was carrying at the time. I was using a 4" Model 66.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

When I was assigned to arson investigation supervisor, that was the latest thing. Investigators could get them and qualify and use them. Never knew why they didn't fly.

The Nyclad went through a couple of iterations. The early Nyclad bullets suffered from a poor hollowpoint profile. Federal corrected that with a later version, but the reputation was already damaged. There were also standard pressure and +P versions offered in 38 Special and more than one bullet weight. Not everyone read the label on the box and got what they paid for but maybe not what they wanted.

The concept was good, an inexpensive way to encapsulate an all-lead soft alloy bullet. Its acceptance was more of a problem than its actual design.

 

[JustJim]

I don't PC (done some experiments to work out the process with my setup, but haven't shot many yet). Still figuring what I want to experiment with.