Alloy Quizeler!
- Thread starter JWFilips
- Start date
I did not know super hard had arsenic.
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
Well this is an exotic mix of my new found blocks of Nuclear med lead...sheld lead and Commercial cast out of our berms! Just trying to get an understandable alloy out of what I have here. ( I do have Magnum shot) most likely would be heat treating or just water dropping to get me to 16 bhn
Ian
Notorious member
My first thought as well.
I think the alloy is just perfect as-is. Water-quench it if need be, it will be good to go in three weeks and up to 18-20 or so BHN.
Since you seem to know the exact alloy do a bit of math and add about 2% Super hard. Is your goal simply to add As or achieve the 16 BHN you mentioned? Your current alloy should be close to WW, adding 2% Sb should get you close. Were it me I would also add 1 or 2 percent Sn. As will add very, very little hardness on it's own, it's value in bullet alloy is achieving a higher BHN when heat treating. It's the Sb that allows the alloy to quench harden, As is only a plus when quenching.
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Ian
Notorious member
Arsenic is a grain refiner, it makes the antimony and lead dendrites that precipitate throughout the alloy after being cast form in smaller, more uniform aggregates. Kind of like the difference between fast-grown yellow pine wood and birch. Sulfur will have a similar effect, but is a buggar to get into the mix.
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
Thanks Guys for all your input on this.
Today I did the smelting and as always I did a more accurate weight & calculation.
The quest was to turn those two large medical bars into a useable alloy. One was obviously pure lead and the other was a layered mix of soft lead and isoptope cores.+ I used my last 5 lbs of real Clip on wheel weights, Some lino and a few wafers of tin bullion. I have used that Speadsheet Lead alloy calculator for years that is found on the CB website. Running all my amounts of the items i had at hand this is what I came up with.
1.34% tin
3.26% antimony
0.01% arsenic
95.4% lead
& now I got 86 pounds of it in the form of 140 super clean mini muffin ingots!
The calculator said it should be 12 bhn ( I will test that in about 10 days) If this is true I can use it for plain base rifle bullets as is air cooled & In my quicker rifles like the 243 win I think It should water drop ok ( still lacking the arsenic, however)
So guys since this is now the "real smelted stuff" in buckets on my basement floor do you think this final alloy mix is usable for rifle bullets ( both light load PB and faster sub 30 cals)?
Thanks
Jim
Today I did the smelting and as always I did a more accurate weight & calculation.
The quest was to turn those two large medical bars into a useable alloy. One was obviously pure lead and the other was a layered mix of soft lead and isoptope cores.+ I used my last 5 lbs of real Clip on wheel weights, Some lino and a few wafers of tin bullion. I have used that Speadsheet Lead alloy calculator for years that is found on the CB website. Running all my amounts of the items i had at hand this is what I came up with.
1.34% tin
3.26% antimony
0.01% arsenic
95.4% lead
& now I got 86 pounds of it in the form of 140 super clean mini muffin ingots!
The calculator said it should be 12 bhn ( I will test that in about 10 days) If this is true I can use it for plain base rifle bullets as is air cooled & In my quicker rifles like the 243 win I think It should water drop ok ( still lacking the arsenic, however)
So guys since this is now the "real smelted stuff" in buckets on my basement floor do you think this final alloy mix is usable for rifle bullets ( both light load PB and faster sub 30 cals)?
Thanks
Jim
Jim, I have shot the 30 sil from range scrap, heat treated, to 2700 fps just fine. Like 2 inch groups for 10 shots at 100 yards.
That alloy was about 1.75% Sb and .25% Sn.
Short answer, that alloy will do pretty much all you need it to do. You essentially have WW plus 1% Sn.
That alloy was about 1.75% Sb and .25% Sn.
Short answer, that alloy will do pretty much all you need it to do. You essentially have WW plus 1% Sn.
As I tried to explain in post #9 you really don't need the arsenic. It is antimony that will allow the alloy to quench harden, arsenic is only frosting on the cake. The As would be a big benefit if you were trying to achieve maximum hardness such as 30 BHN. And . . . .01% As is still enough to have an effect, perhaps not what .25% would achieve but it's there anyway. As in itself will not harden your alloy, it is merely a grain refiner. Sulfur and many other elements will also work as a grain refiner but I can assure you the sulfur will not add hardness either. But will have a strong effect during quenching just as arsenic does.
I agree your alloy at the stated percentages should be about 12 BHN without quenching. I use CWW +2% Sn air cooled at 12 BHN for all high end handgun AND all rifles to about 2000 fps. It works quite well.
Test the BHN right after casting and again in 3 days, then at 10 days. With your stated 3%+ Sb you should learn that you don't need to wait 10 days. The percentage of Sb is what will determine the time/hardness curve and 3% should be fine in 3 days. They will be quite close to final hardness in 3 days and then age harden very little more very slowly over a couple of weeks.
Hope this helps.
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JWFilips
Well-Known Member
You guys are the best! COWW are almost impossible to find in my area anymore. Just the past week I went through 90 Lbs just to get those 5 lbs of old fashioned COWW! So I need other alloy sources.
I started picking the commercial cast out of my range lead ( up here the Com Cast is a good 1/3 to 1/2 of what is in the berm.)
I found that mixing 1 part com cast with 3 part jacketed water dropped get me at about 17 bhn and about 10 air cooled...so that is a new alloy for me !
Up here COWW are a thing of the past....just need to keep finding new alloy mixes with what I can get!
Jim
I started picking the commercial cast out of my range lead ( up here the Com Cast is a good 1/3 to 1/2 of what is in the berm.)
I found that mixing 1 part com cast with 3 part jacketed water dropped get me at about 17 bhn and about 10 air cooled...so that is a new alloy for me !
Up here COWW are a thing of the past....just need to keep finding new alloy mixes with what I can get!
Jim
I just melt my range scrap all together and get 10-11 air cooled and easily can get 20+ with heat treat. I usually use a lower temp to get 16 BHn.
Mine is probably 60-70% jacketed. Don't forget that jacketed cores generally have some Sb. Matter of fact we collected 50# or so yesterday while at the range.
Mine is probably 60-70% jacketed. Don't forget that jacketed cores generally have some Sb. Matter of fact we collected 50# or so yesterday while at the range.
Ian
Notorious member
Jim, give Rick's post a couple of reads and make sure it all soaks in, good stuff there. Cast some bullets to do your hardness testing, ingots are a good indicator of how hard ingots will get, not how hard bullets cast from them will get. Has to do with mass and rate of cooling.
fiver
Well-Known Member
what you have there is what I blend all of my whatevers into and shoot for percentage wise.
I just add some soft and some tin to my ww's.
I mix soft but not pure, and 'that's pretty hard' by guesstimate.
test it and throw some lino in if needed, until I see the right numbers on my lead tester.
I know if I get in the 10-12 range it's close nuff with the SbSn mix.
if it needs more fill out I throw a little more tin in the pot, or warm the mold up a bit more.
I know real scientific.
but in truth we are pretty much working with unknowns even when we have a known.
I just add some soft and some tin to my ww's.
I mix soft but not pure, and 'that's pretty hard' by guesstimate.
test it and throw some lino in if needed, until I see the right numbers on my lead tester.
I know if I get in the 10-12 range it's close nuff with the SbSn mix.
if it needs more fill out I throw a little more tin in the pot, or warm the mold up a bit more.
I know real scientific.
but in truth we are pretty much working with unknowns even when we have a known.
Ian
Notorious member
The little bit of work I did with specific alloys in the last three years or so burned me out real quick on super-science. For one thing, just two alloys worked over from mild to wild in just one gun with just one powder will generate a mountain of notes and stuff to store. It can turn into a full-time science job right quick. So, I have a whole bunch of WW alloy that all comes out about 13-14 bhn straight up, probably has more calcium and antimony in it than it should, takes an add'l 1% SN without getting too stringy coming out of the spout or off the tip of a spoon, so I mix soft sticky weights, roof lead, battery terminals, etc. down to about 12 BHN to make a great, all-around alloy that heat-treats all the way up to 24 bhn and water drops pretty consistently at 18-20. Perfect. Air cooled for below 1800 fps, water-quenched for up to 2300 fps, heat treated for 45 minutes at 400F for anything higher. Generally, of course. If it doesn't work in a particular application at a certain heat treat, I adjust the heat treat or change powders and work it into a sweet spot.