Brass sticking to neck expanding spud

[Ian]

Custom, O-1 tool steel, max hardness in quench oil, polished bright. Clean brass sticks and makes striations all around within ten cycles. Never had this problem with bought tools or any of my other custom expanders. I've polished it clean twice and same gig. Too hard? Too shiny? It's a Powder-thru die on my Loadmaster so lubing inside cases with Imperial or mica isn't a great option. I've studied OEM spuds and seen all kinds from super-polished to bead blasted, trying to find the common denominator that my homemade one lacks.

 

[Brad]

I have had the same issue. I ended up using case lube and still had some trouble.
Clean brass sticks more on my Dillon powder funnel/expanders too.

Not sure what the solution is.

 

[Michael]

Ian, don't feel bad, I have the same issue with a couple of my Dillon expander/funnels in pistol calibers. One these days I will remember to call them and ask how to remedy it.

Rick, hmmm. Come to think of it most of my cases I clean with SSM. Maybe it's too clean inside.

 

[fiver]

too clean.
dirty up the contact area, or lube it.

 

[358156 hp]

Something like this: https://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/162-imperial-dry-neck-lube-convenience-pak

But you can make it yourself, a lot cheaper than this. A really fine ball type media, ceramic or even steel shot with an appropriate dry lube should take care of it.

 

[Ian]

I think you guys are right, too clean is the problem. I'm working through an older batch of brass that I know for certain was done back when I first started wet cleaning and I wasn't using the wax rinse then. Thanks for the mental joggle.

 

[RBHarter]

Just when I was going to suggest some DGF .

 

[JustJim]

I dip the case mouth in powdered graphite before expanding if I think there might be problems, or if the brass is hard to replace (e. g. 44-77, 25-20 SS).

 

[JonB]

I've only had that issue with new Starline brass (sticking to PTED insert, both factory and aftermarket). I guess my cleaned dirty brass is still plenty dirty, LOL. When I figured out my sticky brass issue was the new Starline, I started giving them a quick dry tumble in clean CC media treated with liquid car wax, thinned with 91% Iso Alc.

 

[smokeywolf]

Ian, is there enough surface on the expander to to wring to the inside of the case? Like wringing 2 gage blocks together; "molecular adhesion". If there is enough surface on the expander to wring to the inside of the shell casing, you may have to break up the surface on the expander with a few axial lines (tiny grooves).

Just spitballing here.

 

[CZ93X62]

New Starline brass is a PITA as others have described here. Having gotten away from several of my RCBS T/C sizing dies and returned to steel dies and case lube, my solution to new brass cleanliness is to place just a hint of case lube with a nylon case mouth brush (mine are from RCBS) on every third case mouth of new brass--not unlike we do with neck & shoulder rifle cases. 1 outta 3 doesn't seem to make case mouths attract powder flakes from the Lyman M-die spuds.

 

[Jeff H]

My one experience with this was with a Lyman die, many years ago. I had needed to reduce the OD by half a thousandth and took that much off merely by polishing to a mirror-bright surface. From that point forward, I experienced the exact problem described and ended up killing the shine with some 320 grit, which cured the problem completely.

Granted, this was a single experience and may not be the ultimate solution, but the friction was reduced by reducing how much of the expander surface touched actual brass, meaning only the "high spots," between the 320 grit-sized valleys, created by the 320 grit abrasive paper. That's my hypothesis, anyway.

 

[Bret4207]

Ian, is there enough surface on the expander to to wring to the inside of the case? Like wringing 2 gage blocks together; "molecular adhesion". If there is enough surface on the expander to wring to the inside of the shell casing, you may have to break up the surface on the expander with a few axial lines (tiny grooves).

Just spitballing here.

Pretty sure that is about what I was going to suggest. A "too smooth" surface can sometimes seem worse to deal with than one that is slightly rougher. There's no relief from the friction maybe...or sumthin' like that. Like when you get two pieces of polished stone that are dead flat and try to slide one. If there's nothing between them it's all friction and harder to do than if there's some fine sand between them.

 

[Brad]

Wonder if cutting flutes, very shallow, would help? Just enough to reduce surface area.

 

[JWFilips]

too clean.
dirty up the contact area, or lube it.

Blue it with BC Super blue!

 

[Ian]

Supposition proved correct. I took the rest of this lot of brass and swished it in a bucket of water fortified with a splash of Armor-All wash-n-wax with carnauba (my usual pin separation solution), rinsed, dried, and tried again with a re-polished spud. Three hours later....



100% cured the problem.

 

[Bret4207]

So the wash carries actual wax in with the soap I assume? Cool!

 

[Snakeoil]

I know you solved your problem, but not sure you found the root cause. I struggle with brass scratching hardened steel. Dirt/carbon however will. My guess is your necks were dirty and your wash/wax cleaned them as well as lubed them.

If you want to experiment. Take some acetone on a swab and clean out the necks on a few cases next time and see if they still stick. Also check to see if the brass scratches the hardened plug.

 

[Ian]

The brass wasn't scratching the steel, it was sticking to it and galling, making long, narrow lengthwise ridges of brass which galled more and more on each additional case. The brass that was galling was very clean with a slight passivated layer of oxide on it. Maybe it was the oxide? I didn't clean the oxide, just rinsed in the wax/wash solution and then lightly rinsed in clean running water. The lubricity from the wax solved the problem (I cleaned and polished the spud again, too). This batch of brass was from when I first started SSTM cleaning and before I started using a liquid wax rinse on all my wet-tumbled brass after cleaning. When I use the wax in the pin separation rinse, no sticking to carbide dies or expanding spuds. The reason I started using the wax rinse was to keep brass from tarnishing, but I never realized how much it helped stickage until now.

 

[Tomme boy]

Next time throw the brass in a media tumbler. As long as the media has been treated with polishing agent and a splash of mineral spirits to keep dust down. it only has to run about 5-10 min.

What you ran into is why i have not gone to the pins or chips method of cleaning brass. And watch out for peened over mouths. That is from running them too long