Bullet Cast Weight and accuracy
- Thread starter burbank.jung
- Start date
L Ross
Well-Known Member
Swatting myself in the junk with a ball pein hammer would be better than watching the View.
Dimner
Named Man
Popper that is outstanding. I wish I could get those groups with some of my rifles @200yds with jacketed bullets!
RBHarter
West Central AR
Pistols and the intended use .
This opens a whole new level of "how good does a pistol bullet need be" .
If you're drilling on 3,7,10 yd man outlines double tap and a reload on 5 targets the need for a better bullet than it feeds and doesn't foul is completely different than having a favorite pistol you're comfortable taking game at 50 yd with and a companion carbine that you can confidently stretch that to 100 .
That 165 gr .454 that's consistent at .453 in that 2" compact that does 3 dia at 7yd from the Ransom rest ain't going to cut it when you want 50 yd off hand off hand softballs in the 6"454 FA and the matching chamber Turnbull 90whatever . Both barreled from 1 blank . I don't about you but I would kind of expect to get 5 dia at 50 yd with 10 rounds from each in 1 target . I doubt unless I was guaranteed a stick in their ear shot I'd shoot a collar button for game . No I don't have anything in that class but I did spend 6 months eliminating reasons for "why's it do that" . Weighing stuff came with "OBTW that 130 mould throws 141 gr" which was kind of a bad thing working up a full tilt max load in a little bitty case .
Weighing is of course how we find out our 6 cav casts .401s at 170 , 171,3@175 , and 2@ 176 gr and a 2 cav that casts <178 and >179 that's supposed to be 168 while a 2c 453-350 and 3 c 460-543 cast so close that they could be a single varying less than 2 gr in 15# .
It also allows you to find or at least make changes in tools and techniques until you can get to a point that you can tell there's a pattern in bullet variations.
This opens a whole new level of "how good does a pistol bullet need be" .
If you're drilling on 3,7,10 yd man outlines double tap and a reload on 5 targets the need for a better bullet than it feeds and doesn't foul is completely different than having a favorite pistol you're comfortable taking game at 50 yd with and a companion carbine that you can confidently stretch that to 100 .
That 165 gr .454 that's consistent at .453 in that 2" compact that does 3 dia at 7yd from the Ransom rest ain't going to cut it when you want 50 yd off hand off hand softballs in the 6"454 FA and the matching chamber Turnbull 90whatever . Both barreled from 1 blank . I don't about you but I would kind of expect to get 5 dia at 50 yd with 10 rounds from each in 1 target . I doubt unless I was guaranteed a stick in their ear shot I'd shoot a collar button for game . No I don't have anything in that class but I did spend 6 months eliminating reasons for "why's it do that" . Weighing stuff came with "OBTW that 130 mould throws 141 gr" which was kind of a bad thing working up a full tilt max load in a little bitty case .
Weighing is of course how we find out our 6 cav casts .401s at 170 , 171,3@175 , and 2@ 176 gr and a 2 cav that casts <178 and >179 that's supposed to be 168 while a 2c 453-350 and 3 c 460-543 cast so close that they could be a single varying less than 2 gr in 15# .
It also allows you to find or at least make changes in tools and techniques until you can get to a point that you can tell there's a pattern in bullet variations.
Is that a LEE 6 cavity you refer to?
Dimner I'm not that good a shot and getting worse. My point is good bullets come from good casting methods. And good culling. IMHO all the 'extra' processes may be good for competition and past 200 yds but my experience is good bullet pouring and culling will work for most of us. Few yrs ago I shot some 145gr PC PB @ 2100 fps (~36BHN) at 100 yds from 300 BO. Always thought the bases weren't flat. Go a sort of circle on the target. Rethinking, these were PB in an AR15. Hmm, gas port cutting of the base when passing? No way of proving either way. Kinda like this thread, too many variables.
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
Weigh all your bullets...put them into .1 grain groups in ziplocks and mark them with the weight! Shoot the largest supply first and work your way thru them! Can't go wrong that way ! Yes PITA but if you need to sort you can't get any better! at least they are not all mixed up!
Ian
Notorious member
I know squat about long range competition, but something that either Ric Bowman or Felix Robbins mentioned on these boards one time has stuck with me ever since. The comment was something to the effect of make passable ammo and lots of it so you can get better at minimizing the most important variable: Reading the range conditions. Spending extra time making ammunition that groups 1/4" tighter when you can't read the mirage or shifting wind effectively is a waste.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Well, it is a little of both. Plus you need a rifle that shoots. You need decent ammo or you'll never know if your shot placement is the conditions or the ammo, assuming you do your job. You learn something about the conditions with every shot. First shot informs, next shot confirms. But you don't need sub-MOA ammo, you just need good ammo.
On a day with severe conditions, I try to find what I call a sweet spot. That is a sighting and hold that will keep me on the target while the conditions change. I still will make hold adjustments for the conditions for every shot. But my goal is to be closer to center, not stay on target.
The .22 matches were a waste of time with bargain ammo. Could never tell if conditions were different than we were reading or the shot was a flyer. Moved to target grade ammo and being able to accurately read theconditions and the learning curve improved dramatically.
We all still get the unexplained flyer now and then. But when more than one of us has a flyer in the same direction, we figure that there something going on that we cannot see.
On a day with severe conditions, I try to find what I call a sweet spot. That is a sighting and hold that will keep me on the target while the conditions change. I still will make hold adjustments for the conditions for every shot. But my goal is to be closer to center, not stay on target.
The .22 matches were a waste of time with bargain ammo. Could never tell if conditions were different than we were reading or the shot was a flyer. Moved to target grade ammo and being able to accurately read theconditions and the learning curve improved dramatically.
We all still get the unexplained flyer now and then. But when more than one of us has a flyer in the same direction, we figure that there something going on that we cannot see.
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Frank Marshall wrote an article about making "good enough" ammo without a lot of fuss or fancy equipment and personal philosophy on cast and loading/shooting cast is very close to what he describes. When I get great enough, doing what I'm doing, then maybe I'll start fussing over such things, but I'm sort of content with what I'm getting from what I'm using/doing, so I may never get great enough.
RBHarter
West Central AR
Yes. Some of that was me but 5 runs yielded the same results.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
After 25 years of benchrest competition, I am happy to make plinking ammo for the summer. And a few hard core loads for postal matches shot with my friends.
burbank.jung
Active Member
Well, I decided to kill some time today and weigh segregated one bag of my 40-170 TC Lee PC bullets. From the top pile the bullets grouped to 182gr, then 183gr, and then 185/186gr. A small number were culled and are pictured on the left. The either had visible flaws or were 188-191gr. Hopefully I can recast these culled bullets along with some other ingot before moving onto 9-122 TC Lee bullets. Thanks for your input.
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fiver
Well-Known Member
Swatting myself in the junk with a ball pein hammer would be better than watching the View.
i tune in from time to time hoping whoopies chair will collapse under the stupid.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Sorry, but you are not going to see any difference with that small difference. And even with a Ransom Rest that I have used.
burbank.jung
Active Member
Well, it wouldn't hurt. I primarily wanted to remove the outliers. The mold wasn't closing well a few times..
burbank.jung
Active Member
Ricin, I don't own a Ransom rest and sandbag my handgun. What have you discovered by being able to remove errors from handgun grip and your loads?
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
If you were a very good shot, with a very good gun, firing at extended handgun ranges (50+yards), off a bench, you might be able to pick up the difference.
L Ross
Well-Known Member
When I read about your weight variation I was going to offer my experience. Now with your comment above I will. When I was making schuetzen bullets and was striving for as perfect a bullet as I could cast I was weight sorting. I learned that if I tapped my mould shut, with my casting mallet, by gently tapping the gently closed mould on jaw of the handle where it enters the mould block, my weight variations dropped from .3 or.4 grain spread over 100 bullets, to nearly zero. Since I hold my mould by the handles in my left hand, I tap the sprue cutter, drop my bullet(s), gently close the blocks by closing the handles with the blocks sliding on my wooden casting bench. I then tap the jaw on the right side of the blocks taking care not to strike the blocks them selves. This way I know the mould is completely closed and the alignment pins are fully seated. Then I close the sprue plate and fill the mould again. This has become a habit and I can do it without much effort. I also keep a Q-Tip with a "trace" of synthetic two stroke oil on it a touch the alignment pins and their mating holes a couple of times each casting session.
Of course it should go without saying, that allowing splashes or flecks of alloy to get on your mould faces, will prevent full closure and all weight bets are off.