Danged Pinholes

Chris C

Active Member
I was casting some pretty nice bullets today................nice looking until I put on my loupe to inspect and found about 50% had pinholes in them. I was casting a 270gr plain base bullet. 30 second cycle. #2 alloy. PID set at 745*, mold start temp at 480* (but settles in at around 433*) Can't figure out the cause. Any suggestions?
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Ok, how consistent are the weights? Are the bands well filled and bases square?

I can assure you that a picture of a bullet shows every little flaw and makes the bullet look horrendous.

A loupe would magnify every little flaw even though the flaws may not have any bearing on accuracy potential.

Got photos?

Oh, cast at a lower temp. 745° for #2 alloy is awful hot. I cast a far lower alloy at 700 and it does very nicely. Maybe try running the PID at 700 and see what it does.
 

Chris C

Active Member
I plan on trying a bell curve tomorrow and dropping the temperature back...........but only to 735* . Don't make more than one change at a time..........and seldom large ones.
At this point, I'm only keeping my weights in a 2 gr range. Can't seem to get them tighter. Out of a 200 bullet bell curve, I only get about 50 that are within +or- .1gr of my longest line. Not impressive, I know, but I'm a beginner and learning.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
#2 likes 650 F and 15 second pours. If you're checking your bullets with a loupe you need a new hobby! If there are craters in the base, I tend to cull those because they can propagate up the sides of the bullet and blow out a lube groove, but it doesn't really hurt anything other than cause a flyer or maybe a little lead smear in your barrel at worst.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
What caliber, what cartridge, what firearm, and what range? Holding .1gr on a 270 gr bullet is pretty damn tight. Think of it this way, 2.7 gr is 1%. .27 gr is .1%. You are trying to hold closer to .03% and I don't know anyone who even tries to get that close.

I would suggest you shoot the bullets you have and see if weight is really a major factor in accuracy. You may find that the load, bullet design, and firearm don't even notice a 2.7 gr spread.

Look for good fill out of all bands and a square base. That is far more important than weight.

As a beginner you are getting too wrapped around the weight control axle. Lots of far more important factors impact accuracy than tight weight control. Learn to cast good bullets and how to shoot them. Tell me you have a gun/load combo that puts cast into an inch for 5 shot groups day in and day out at 100 and I might tell you to look at weight variation.

More time at casting, loading, and shooting bench! That is the way to learn.

You are casting way too hot for your alloy.
 

Tony

Active Member
If you are casting 270 grain bullets and keeping the weight of individual bullets within a range of 2 grains that works out to something like three quarters of 1 percent. In terms of weight variation, I do not see the/a problem. If you had air pockets within individual bullets I would expect to see more variation. Size, lube and load some up and shoot them. You may be pleased with the results.
 

Chris C

Active Member
Thanks Brad.

Okay. Rifle is a C. Sharps 1885 Highwall in .38-55.

p1731096769-3.jpg


Bullets are plain-based and shot at low pressures..........i.e. 9.75 gr Unique. Accurate mold #380-270C........my design. The reason I'm striving for such a small weight range is I ran a test last month with 50 bullets not weighed and 50 bullets "cherry picked" to within +or- .1gr of each other. I only shot at 50 yards, but the results were so "telling" that I'm on this quest to clean up my casting act and learn how to do more than "pour the silvery stuff in the aluminum mold and kick'em out when they get hard" attitude. Been working with Tim Malcom (Goodsteel) to try and get a handle on what I'm doing right and wrong. I've only been casting a couple of years and the majority of it has been pretty hit and miss as far as quality goes. Now it's time to get serious. I'm not kidding myself into thinking I can cast +or- .1gr..........but I'd like to make a casting run and be able to cherry-pick the majority of the run in that range for inventory.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I would suggest you look to the ASSRA for advice on better shooting loads for that rifle. Those guys shoot groups with single shot rifles using cast that many of us can only dream of.

Bullet weight isn't you problem. Pinholes aren't either. Not at 50 yards.
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
Agree with Brad, and who ever said you may be over thinking the pinhole issue.
Shoot them and report, for comparison and analysis.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I would suggest asking Ben what he does. He shoots lots of very small groups at 50 yards with a wide variety of bullets and rifles.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I would suggest you look to the ASSRA for advice on better shooting loads for that rifle. Those guys shoot groups with single shot rifles using cast that many of us can only dream of.

Bullet weight isn't you problem. Pinholes aren't either. Not at 50 yards.

...and they do it with bullet weight variances several times the magnitude being discussed.

There is a difference between precision in the places that matter, and the places that it doesn't matter so much.

"I would suggest asking Ben what he does. He shoots lots of very small groups at 50 yards with a wide variety of bullets and rifles."

Yep. And not to diminish Ben in any way, but you'll notice a lot of rounded bands, small voids on band edges, and other inconsistencies in his photos of ready-to-load bullets. He also shoots a lot of one-hole groups at 80 yards using cheap Lee moulds he plain-based himself with an ordinary fractional drill bit on a drill press. No DRO. No Last Word indicator. No 4-jaw chuck. Just Mark 1 Eyeball.

Think about that. Look at his groups shot from old, tired, warhorse rifles. From cheap Savage department store barrels. From Lee moulds. From scrap alloy.

How does he do it?

He understands how to make certain things fit and work together to get good groups.

He doesn't mess around trying to get precision where it isn't needed. I think Ben would get a chuckle if you asked him what his weight bell curve is, or even what his max +/-, or if he even weight sorts or has any need to know what his bullet mould temperatures run when casting.

I'm not saying that these things are unimportant on some levels, because indeed they are, BUT, at 50 yards and cat-sneeze velocities, fractional-percent weight variation and microscopic pinholes in your castings ARE NOT IMPORTANT.

Three things are of critical importance to what you're doing: Match the alloy to the pressure (or vice-versa), make your bullets all release the case in exactly the same manner, and learn how to manage static/dynamic bullet fit.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
One other major factor. Learn how to shoot small groups.
Ben just plain knows how to shoot and how to get the most from a rifle. Often it isn't an equipment race, it is a shooter competition.
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
Chris C, your High Wall is beautiful.

I'm going to be watching for input on this thread from Ben, Glen and a couple of others.
 

35 shooter

Well-Known Member
Beautifull rifle. I agree with what's being said on culling here. Good filled out bases and bands and cull the voids you see with the naked eye. Heck, i don't even weigh my bullets anymore and just depend on visual(naked eye) culling to keep any under weight(from internal voids) bullets from getting in the mix.

It's taken more load developement for me than anything else, but my hunting(not competition rifles) shoot nice tight groups at 105 yds. 1.5" or better or it doesn't go in my load book...most of my loads will shoot much better than that. I finally found that weighing the bullets didn't really change my group avg. much if any and quit doing it.
Again, that's in my sporter rifles, if i was going to a competition shoot, i'd probably weigh them and set the most consistent aside just for that.

If i looked at my bullets through a loupe, i might be tempted to cull them all.

Just for example, i bought a used xcb bullet mould a while back and for the life of me can't get more than 1/3 of the bullets to fill out...looked like someone had used some kind of release agent on it.
I finally gave up and bought a new one from noe(30 xcb) about a week ago, visually inspected some bullets from it and used the same load i had with the used mould.

I've only had time to shoot two 5 shot groups so far with the new bullets, but both groups broke an inch at 105 yds.@ 2447 fps. chronoed
from a 1/12 twist .308. I haven't weighed a single bullet from that mould yet.
Nor have i shot enough groups to see if it holds up.
Bullets from the other mould were just over an inch with that load, but the new mould is dropping 90% keepers so far lol.
Again, that's a fine rifle you have . Good shooting with it!
 
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Chris C

Active Member
Okay, it seems I've put you off, Brad. Sorry 'bout dat. Didn't mean to. I'm a newbie to the group and certainly don't want to start off wrong by ruffling feathers.

Thanks for the compliments on my "shooter". Mighty proud of it. Set me back enough that my funds for anything else are going to be limited for a long while.

I'm obsessed with detail..............in all that I try to learn. Maybe that's not the way some people learn, but it's my way of understanding not only "where I put my foot, but 'why' I'm putting it there". Right now, I'm chasing a rabbit down a hole. I may find it's a waste of my time as some indicate, but it's what I want to do right now. I know there are people who can cast any 'ol way and shoot well. I believe that's because they are good shooters...............I'm not one of those. I have to work hard to shoot well. I know a woman who hunts and takes deer with an atlatl.............but that's not me. What started me on this quest was when a friend sent me some bullets to try in my Highwall. They were competition bullets he'd pulled from his stock. All 50 weighed the exact same. I don't happen to have a mold to make the bullet or that's what I'd be casting. Here's the target:

p313052393-3.jpg


When I'm working up loads, I shoot at 50 yds. I'll move back to 100 when I find a good load. This was a good load............but I don't have any more of those bullets. I have the molds I have on hand and am working with those until I can afford another. This is a three shot group, shot off a front rest with no rear bag. I'm a member of the ASSRA site, but often my questions fall on deaf ears there because 99% of the guys over there shoot breech-seated bullets and "the Holy Black". Most of them cast their bullets with a whole lot more concern about quality than I even know about. (which is why a friend suggested to me yesterday to inspect my bullets with a jewelers loupe) He said he saw some pinholes in bullets I took to ask questions about.

I don't have any Lyman #2. I only say it is because the guy who told me how to mix what I have said "it might as well be". I've been told I'd do a lot better if I'd purchase #2.............just don't have the funds.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Welcome to the forum Chris C. :D

Your pot temp is too high for a 5% Sn alloy and mold temp also. Casting rhythm is too slow also but it will be much easier to cast with a quicker rhythm by lowering the pot temp. With temps that high there is no choice but to wait for the mold to cool enough for the alloy to freeze, not just the sprue but the alloy inside the mold also. Don't get me wrong, I am not a speed caster. Never once have I gone into the loading room to see how many bullets I could cast in a given time. I cast for the quality bullets I get, never for how many.

Using a bell curve to weigh bullets has two useful functions. It is a useful learning aid for a new caster to see what is happening with his casting rhythm but after some experience is gained it's time to move on to more useful use of time. The other possible usefulness is in casting say 40 grain 22's meant for both high velocity/pressue and long range. It is a function of a percentage of the whole. A .3 grain weight variation of a 40 grain bullet is a larger variation than a 1 grain variation of a 250 grain bullet. I shot long range handgun for 30+ years and 30 years ago I did the bell curve in the mistaken belief it would give me an edge. I did that for a couple of years until I finally learned that it made no difference. My scores did not suffer in the slightest when I began competing with in-weighed bullets. In fact I went on to improve with time and won state and national championships . . . With un-weighed bullets. I look back at that time not as a waste of time but as a learning tool.

Another tip for you regarding weight spreads, I pre-heat my molds on a hot plate but even so regardless of how good the first bullets may look the first 10 pours or more will be the lightest bullets of that casting session. Once the mold temp is uniformed with the alloy temp and a steady casting rhythm is used the weight spread will also become more uniform.

I believe your time will be much better spent by reducing pot and mold temp and concentrating on perfect bullet bases and a good fit of the bullet to the rifles throat.
.
 
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Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Another tip is with your current low velocity and low pressure loads you have no need whatsoever for Lyman #2 or it's equivalent. Some of the very best advice you can get is to get the phrase "hardcast" out of your head. Hardcast is not a plus, not a benefit in many, most situations.
 

Chris C

Active Member
Thanks, Rick.

First let me say, the goal of my bell curves is not specifically to end up with a specific weight bullet...............the only purpose is to improve the consistency of my casting method. I just started doing the bell curves two weeks ago and it's taught me a lot already. The more consistent my method, the better my bullets will turn out. To cherry pick the tighter weights is only an after benefit to me. I am more than happy with +or- .5 gr for most of my shooting.

The bullets I cast yesterday tested out at a 10.4 BHN and will probably age harden to an 11 or maybe slightly higher...............perfect for my purposes. "Hardcast" bullets have never been my desire. I water-dropped some of my bullets once and had virtually no luck with the accuracy I'm after. I use this same alloy for my .357 magnum rounds. I get no leading, whatsoever with this alloy and my lubricant in any of my firearms. I don't even have to worry about leading.............so much so that I don't ever clean my barrels. The most I ever do is run a loose dry patch down the barrel and inspect just to make sure there's none.

I preheat my molds on a hot-plate. I've got a mold thermometer so I can keep my data for a starting temp. Like I said, mine's not really a #2.............my Sn is only 2%.

I pay very careful attention to fill-out. No rounded edges anywhere.......or even a hint of softness on an edge. (I'm OCD, after all!) ;)

I appreciate all the comments and suggestions...........I really do. I'm stubborn to "steer" sometimes because I've got my blinders on too tight. (typical OCD) I'll give 'er a try again today. Drop back to 675* and a 15 second cycle and see what happens.