did lyman ever make a real Keith 429421?
- Thread starter bruce381
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CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Lyman mould design poetry........Lyman seeks no refuge in consistency, putting it politely. Elmer Keith raised hell with Lyman and others that didn't follow his design specs of "Three drive bands of equal length" in his SWC bullet design. I have a 2-cavity #358429 from the late 80s or early 90s with narrower front and rear drive bands than its center band. Using modern bullet lubes or powder coating, the need for the big lube grooves found on Keith-style SWCs seems a bit superfluous, but that is what St. Elmer specified, and GOLDANGIT THAT'S WHAT A KEITH DESIGN SHOULD HAVE, per the purists. That same lot also gets wrapped around axles concerning square lube grooves vs. radiused lube grooves.
Keith SWCs work wonderfully for me, as do Thompson designs and RCBS/Lachmiller SWCs. IME, the 429421 does a great job of still slinging bullet lube onto target paper at 25 yards. Not a whole lot of folks are using bear tallow for bullet lube these days, or 16/1 Pb/Sn alloy either. Tools and tech might change, but the art itself remains constant.
Keith SWCs work wonderfully for me, as do Thompson designs and RCBS/Lachmiller SWCs. IME, the 429421 does a great job of still slinging bullet lube onto target paper at 25 yards. Not a whole lot of folks are using bear tallow for bullet lube these days, or 16/1 Pb/Sn alloy either. Tools and tech might change, but the art itself remains constant.
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CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
Many variants have been cut for sure.
The one in my HP mold is a very thin front band. WAY TO THIN WHY DO THAT front band!!????
My soild mold used a different cherry and it has three different width bands???. Also a round grease groove.
The one in my HP mold is a very thin front band. WAY TO THIN WHY DO THAT front band!!????
My soild mold used a different cherry and it has three different width bands???. Also a round grease groove.
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Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I agree completely with Al.
Elmer had some very well-defined ideas on what a “Keith” style SWC should be.
I use a RCBS SWC for my 44 Special needs and it isn’t a pure “Keith” design, but it is close. It is an excellent bullet. I don’t think straying a little from the royal edict is a major sin.
Elmer had some very well-defined ideas on what a “Keith” style SWC should be.
I use a RCBS SWC for my 44 Special needs and it isn’t a pure “Keith” design, but it is close. It is an excellent bullet. I don’t think straying a little from the royal edict is a major sin.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Heresy loves company, P&P. I think a better attitude to maintain in this hobby field is one of "Very few absolutes". Beliefs are a powerful thing, which is why religion and politics are subjects best minimized in polite company or hobby sites. Some people just don't think there is more than one way to skin a cat, but most of us here are open to discussing alternate methods of arriving at a given destination. Heck, as casters we already traverse a road far less traveled just by virtue of pouring our own rifle and pistol projectiles.
Early times of my reloading and casting activity included live publications in gunrags of such men as Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton, and Bill Jordan. These men and others like them added much to the knowledge base of firearms usage and cartridge reloading, To greater or lesser extents, most of us are acolytes of their expressed beliefs, and not just because we read their works and believed as a matter of faith. No, most of us tested their theories in the real world, and most of their material was proven to us to be empirically valid. These folks saved us a whole lot of experimentation and time-wasting. For that we are all in their debt.
Early times of my reloading and casting activity included live publications in gunrags of such men as Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton, and Bill Jordan. These men and others like them added much to the knowledge base of firearms usage and cartridge reloading, To greater or lesser extents, most of us are acolytes of their expressed beliefs, and not just because we read their works and believed as a matter of faith. No, most of us tested their theories in the real world, and most of their material was proven to us to be empirically valid. These folks saved us a whole lot of experimentation and time-wasting. For that we are all in their debt.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
".......These folks saved us a whole lot of experimentation and time-wasting. For that we are all in their debt."
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Sir Isaac Newton (and many others)
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Sir Isaac Newton (and many others)
I use an NOE version of he HG 503. Bands are similar in size but weight is more like 265 gr.
My 624 doesn’t seem to mind. My 429421 Lyman got used in some millig machine experiments and didn’t survive. It cast .429 and I wanted .433 so no real loss.
My 624 doesn’t seem to mind. My 429421 Lyman got used in some millig machine experiments and didn’t survive. It cast .429 and I wanted .433 so no real loss.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
I have a few 429421s, and 358429 that date back to the '40s, according to the information I have gathered, the most reliable of which came from Ric Bowman. These moulds have square lube grooves, but the front drive band on every one of them is undersized. They are cut in unvented blocks. These are not difficult to find, the mould finish is not the very early style, and they have a brushed finish. I can't help but to fall back on something said earlier about Lyman/Ideal never making a Keith design to Keiths specs. I have heard that one of the big name gun writers does have an original Ideal Keith mould, and it is cut to Keiths specs. I believe this is completely possible, and that this particular mould may have been one of the original special order, or Keith prototypes. I can only hope for an article some day.
The answer to the varying versions seems to stem from Lyman/Ideals use of outside vendors to cut cherries for them. It would be interesting to see the original blueprints the machine shops had to work from, were the changes made on the design side, or the manufacturing side? I see the same issues with other designs, and they seem to share common issues, like the front driving band length. All the Keith designs seem to show variances at that point, at nose length, and in weight. Lymans catalogues in the past show weight changes for 358429 running from 170 to 168 grains over the years. Some of that may come from changing their alloy specs from Lyman #2 to linotype, but they're showing 170 gr for lino in the Third Edition of the Pistol & Revolver handbook, so that doesn't fit either.
The answer to the varying versions seems to stem from Lyman/Ideals use of outside vendors to cut cherries for them. It would be interesting to see the original blueprints the machine shops had to work from, were the changes made on the design side, or the manufacturing side? I see the same issues with other designs, and they seem to share common issues, like the front driving band length. All the Keith designs seem to show variances at that point, at nose length, and in weight. Lymans catalogues in the past show weight changes for 358429 running from 170 to 168 grains over the years. Some of that may come from changing their alloy specs from Lyman #2 to linotype, but they're showing 170 gr for lino in the Third Edition of the Pistol & Revolver handbook, so that doesn't fit either.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Sarcasm alert up front......given Lyman's long-standing poetic design parameters, I have little doubt that Lyman/Ideal DID produce mould cavities to Mr. Keith's design specs, and even less doubt that such occurrences were both accidental and fortuitous.
I like the Keith design very much, but like every other jake-leg with a bottom-pour furnace I would tweak the specs just a bit. {You just KNEW I would do this} I would reduce the grease groove by at least half its capacity, and add that full-diameter portion equally to the three drive bands--which should have been equal in length & diameter to begin with. The "pure" Keith design is pretty much revolver-specific, not always workable in leverguns or autopistols. Round flatnoses rule the earth in those venues.
I like the Keith design very much, but like every other jake-leg with a bottom-pour furnace I would tweak the specs just a bit. {You just KNEW I would do this} I would reduce the grease groove by at least half its capacity, and add that full-diameter portion equally to the three drive bands--which should have been equal in length & diameter to begin with. The "pure" Keith design is pretty much revolver-specific, not always workable in leverguns or autopistols. Round flatnoses rule the earth in those venues.
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I read a gunzine article or maybe it was one of Elmers books where Mr. Keith had received his new Ideal mould made to his design. If I remember correctly he was sent a couple of his new 429421 moulds and he forwarded the second mould to a friend to try. At least initially Keith liked the Ideal/Lyman version. After that it would appear things went downhill. Both my 1970's versions (a single cavity hollow point and a 2 cavity) of the 429421 have the dreaded round grease groove. But I was just beginning casting and didn't know any better and they shot fine because ignorance is bliss. I think I've had 6 different Keith bullets in 44. The two Lyman, a H&G 503 (no longer have), the NOE verion of the 503 and the NOE mould made from samples Keith approved from the 1970's. Oddly they have all shot well and no one of them was a standout for good or bad from the other versions.
I remember an OLD Lyman Arsenal mold We had back in the early 1960's. Dad absolutely Hated the Arsenal molds. But that one cast a Perfect Keith bullet the way Keith designed it. It shot one hole groups out of a New Service Target. Could never get a 4cav Lyman or H&G mold to shoot as well.
Wish I could've gotten My hands on it.
Wish I could've gotten My hands on it.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
If it says "Lyman" on the side of the block and has a square lube groove, it is almost certainly a late production mould. Several years back the new Lyman owners decided to make Keiths with square lube grooves again.
Such are the whims at Lyman. A company with a very whimsical history.
waco
Springfield, Oregon
Not sure when it was made. I bought it off the swap & sell page from the CB site something like 13-15 years ago.
fiver
Well-Known Member
i think he is talking about 3 bands of equal length not diameter.
i got a 41 of this design super duper cheap, then found out why when i started running it like my others.
the front band was so thin it would just break coming out of the mold with any sort of warmth still in the alloy.
casts great if i get the mold hot then back it down to about 2 to 2.5 pours a minute, and wait out the hardening of the alloy.
i got a 41 of this design super duper cheap, then found out why when i started running it like my others.
the front band was so thin it would just break coming out of the mold with any sort of warmth still in the alloy.
casts great if i get the mold hot then back it down to about 2 to 2.5 pours a minute, and wait out the hardening of the alloy.
Cadillac Jeff
Well-Known Member
I bought 2---one each from ebay years ago ---both ideal lymans,1 square grove 1 round grove. Even cast some up from same pot ,always ment to do a side by side -----hell I don't shoot good enuf to even see a diferance ???
But bragin rites for havin both I guess?!
Jeff
But bragin rites for havin both I guess?!
Jeff
If the 41 design is the 410459 Keith mould by Lyman, Elmer was supposed to have really rather disliked this bullet. It was sold by Lyman as a Keith design without any input from Elmer and has the narrow front band. Elmer quickly contacted H&G and had them make up the number 258 mould to his design so the world could have a proper Keith for the new 41 Magnum. When I first purchased my computer 5 or six years ago about the first thing I did was go looking for a four cavity Lyman 410459 or the H&G 258. Thats how I discovered NOE. They had just run there first copies of this mould so I purchased one post haste. My first posting here was me begging for a couple of H&G 258 sample bullets so NOE could make a copy of this mould. A member here was good enough to forward some 258 cast bullets to NOE for a clone. Oddly enough my 41 shoots both bullets about the same, similar to what happens in various 44's I own and shoot different variation of Keith bullets thru.
KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
I have a 10 cavity H & G 258. I supplied samples from it for a group buy from Mihec while at the other site. I bought a four cavity brass mold with several sets of pins in the deal. Also have a four cavity 410459. There are dimensional differences but in my very limited testing with the only .41 I own (S&W M57) I couldn’t tell much difference between the two.
If someone tried real hard and waved enough money under my nose I might be convinced to part with the H & G.
If someone tried real hard and waved enough money under my nose I might be convinced to part with the H & G.