Hunting with RN Bullets
- Thread starter Josh
- Start date
No doubt someone will chime in to disagree but I wouldn't hunt with a round if there where any other option. It would have a much better chance of producing a clean entrance hole and a clean exit hole. Lot's of bleeding on both sides seems to be a better goal. Your mileage may vary but that's how I see it.
For a .30 caliber RN cast bullet (e.g. 311291), cast of WW or softer alloy, I would be looking for an impact velocity of at least 1600 fps, and I wouldn't really be too happy with that. If I could get good accuracy out of whatever I was shooting it out of, I be happier with 1900-2000 fps to get better expansion. I would not hunt with commercial hard-cast .30 caliber RN bullets (other than small varmints) as they are too hard to expand at these velocities. Yes, a lot of game has been taken with RN bullets (most with larger calibers, or higher velocities), but for cast bullet velocities a flat meplat is a very good thing.
9
9.3X62AL
Guest
BruceB Soft Point. Makes meplat size or nose shape largely academic from the evidence I have seen and read. PITA to turn out in large numbers, but most hunting venues don't call for "mass quantities".
RBHarter
West Central AR
Depends on how hard , consistently placed and how fast .
50/50 water cooled or HT is more likely to make a bigger exit wound and upset to create major tissue disruption at an impact velocity of 15-1700 fps than HT WW with a launch speed of 1500.
Even A/C lino is likely to break up at just 1500 and pencil through under 1200.
50/50 water cooled or HT is more likely to make a bigger exit wound and upset to create major tissue disruption at an impact velocity of 15-1700 fps than HT WW with a launch speed of 1500.
Even A/C lino is likely to break up at just 1500 and pencil through under 1200.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
It really depends on the nose profile. Some RN's are lots more "pointy" than others. A blunter RN works more like a FP. 358009 has a completely different RN than 358318 for instance. I prefer a FP or WFN along the old B+M style, but a RN can surely work. Err to the softer side, try to get the FPS up towards 2k at least and try to break bone. Bust the shoulders and they aren't going anywhere. But a FP will always do better int he same alloy and speed IME.
Sometimes you want pointier, like in small game. Hold the speed down and put the pointy tool through the heart lungs and the meat is unaffected. That's where a FP can do too much damage. Think 311316 vs 311359.
Sometimes you want pointier, like in small game. Hold the speed down and put the pointy tool through the heart lungs and the meat is unaffected. That's where a FP can do too much damage. Think 311316 vs 311359.
Josh
Well-Known Member
I have always said a well placed but "incorrect" bullet will get the job done, just look at the guys using subsonic jacketed bullets to take deer or guys that swear by a 32 gr vmax from a 204 ruger. But I also like to ensure a clean kill when hunting.
I have never used anything but bullets with a meplat and results have been on par with jacketed ammunition, I just was looking at some of the moulds I have, and if I can not hunt effectively with them I may cull them from the herd.
I have never used anything but bullets with a meplat and results have been on par with jacketed ammunition, I just was looking at some of the moulds I have, and if I can not hunt effectively with them I may cull them from the herd.
Match the alloy to the velocity and a blunt round nose wouldn't be bad, if driven to 1800 fps or more. That for a 30 cal. Go up in diameter and it gets to be less or a gamble. A 45-70 RN isn't really an issue, it will make a big hole no matter what.
That said, I will go with a flat nose pretty much every time. Less worry over things.
That said, I will go with a flat nose pretty much every time. Less worry over things.
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
Josh, I'm no expert but when you mentioned this I recalled those big dangerous game African rifle rife calibers 416 Rigby 458 win etc
I think that some of these were even used FMJ & they were going for max penetration of beast like nothing we have on this continent.
When I was much younger I remember hunting with a guy ( not really a friend but he may have thought so) He decided he needed a .338 Win mag to hunt PA whitetails ( he wasn't a successful hunter in the past you see) we went out one opening day He got the first shot at a y buck at 40 yards I saw the shot Just behind the front shoulder ( I was watching the same deer in my scope) The deer bolted and ran a diagonal path along the mountain ( PA Mountains
) & I lost sight of it. I went down to help him track & I was surprised at the little fur and blood at the impact zone. Long story short we tracked the deer for 1 1/2 hours with less & less blood trail then lost the track. Big fast gun Very heavy bullet on a light American game animal ( passing right through with not much damage)Later that day I had a 3/4 shot at a small buck & took it with my .35 Rem 336 Marlin Strange shot: got heart, some lung, liver and the bullet ended up in the hind leg of the side of the deer I shot at!(Talk about key holeing!) Deer jumped straight up in the air and went on a head long run straight down the mountain & piled up 40 yards away from impact area. He came over to help me track but I said I had him down. Impact area lots of cut fur and lots of blood the short trail to were he lay only became more blood laden. A tail of two calibers that day
So what I'm I getting at here ....I have no darn Idea!!
I totally got off the track
Sorry
Jim
Josh
Well-Known Member
No Jim don't apologize, I just wanted to bring up a healthy discussion. I own a 416 Rigby and must say it is too much for any North American game with jacketed bullets. With cast is is great, like a huge 45-70, I have used a RN-ish design with it (.180 meplat) with minimal issues.
I just couldn't figure out how, with proper alloy, that a RN cast bullet isn't as effective as a bullet with a meplat. Possibly even get a semi detailed thread going (much like the lube threads)
Any and all info is more than appreciated and I am adding it to the memory bank.
I just couldn't figure out how, with proper alloy, that a RN cast bullet isn't as effective as a bullet with a meplat. Possibly even get a semi detailed thread going (much like the lube threads)
Any and all info is more than appreciated and I am adding it to the memory bank.
A 311291 in a 30-30 with a range scrap alloy heat treated would be fine with me. Load it to shoot around 2K fps and I am certain some expansion would occur. Not a 200 yard deer gun to me but out to 100 it would work.
Somewhere around 1600-1800 fps velocity starts to make a difference in wound channel. Bullet design is still a factor but velocity plays a role that can't be ignored.
I once hit a squirrel with a 224438 from a 10" K hornet barrel on my contender. Load was enough Unique to give me 1350 fps or so. I thought of it as a 22 LR type load. Man did the squirrels beg to differ. The extra velocity over a standard velocity 22 LR created a far larger wound. Body shots left a huge exit wound. That experience showed me that velocity does matter in wound size.
Somewhere around 1600-1800 fps velocity starts to make a difference in wound channel. Bullet design is still a factor but velocity plays a role that can't be ignored.
I once hit a squirrel with a 224438 from a 10" K hornet barrel on my contender. Load was enough Unique to give me 1350 fps or so. I thought of it as a 22 LR type load. Man did the squirrels beg to differ. The extra velocity over a standard velocity 22 LR created a far larger wound. Body shots left a huge exit wound. That experience showed me that velocity does matter in wound size.
F
freebullet
Guest
I'm planning to test the 312-155 on wet pack & water filled milk jugs at different velocities & hardness this summer.
I much prefer hollow points. Even for jax. Interesting discussion though.
I much prefer hollow points. Even for jax. Interesting discussion though.
KHornet
Well-Known Member
Round nose cast have their place, but unless they are HP's or soft nose Bruce B's, I would not hunt them. In a 30, would much prefer a 31141 any day plain or HP. In an 06 a 311284 HP (just happen to have a mold) is just about the cats whatever at around 2000, out to 200 or so. Just my opinion!
Knew an old gent in Pa. when stationed there that killed his deer every year with a Krag and 220 gr Round nose. Forget the brand but think it was Green Box Remington. Was there for 3 years, and saw two of his kills, both one shot only. He said he had never killed a deer over 100 yds, most under 50, and those big 220 RN with lots of exposed lead had never failed him. That story however is a horse of a different color and a stray from the subject of round nose cast. for hunting..
Knew an old gent in Pa. when stationed there that killed his deer every year with a Krag and 220 gr Round nose. Forget the brand but think it was Green Box Remington. Was there for 3 years, and saw two of his kills, both one shot only. He said he had never killed a deer over 100 yds, most under 50, and those big 220 RN with lots of exposed lead had never failed him. That story however is a horse of a different color and a stray from the subject of round nose cast. for hunting..
RBHarter
West Central AR
<<<<< those are paper patched 50/50 at 50 yd launched at 1500 fps captured in powdered clay. They were a 200gr cast spire point much like the 311-230 NOE with 30 gr of bore ride removed . Those 5 weighed 195 to 198 gr and had an average major dia of .602 . There were similar results through 2 gallon jugs and a trap that used a .5 in plywood panel and up to 24" of trash bag water chamber and 8" of wet or dry paper pack.
James W. Miner
Active Member
Meplat does not help. I shot many deer with my 45-70 BFR at 1630 fps with no lung damage, just a hole and no blood trails at all, lost a few and some recovered over 200 yards. I made another mold with a WFN and it did no more. My boolit was too hard.
Then I got my BFR in .500 JRH and made a mold for a WFN. Same stinking problems with no blood trails and deer going 100-120 yards.
I figure the pressure wave from the flat nose was moving tissue out of the way in a secondary wound channel that collapses after boolit passage. Took the wind out of my sails.
I softened the 45-70 boolit and went to a HP and that was disgusting with a whole shoulder destroyed on exit and bloodshot head to tail. TOO MUCH!
I then softened half the nose on the JRH and deer hit the ground before barrel rise. Then I hit bone once and found this.
Entrance wound and ruined the whole neck too. Big boolit is on the moon. 440 gr at 1350 fps is too much on bone.
Now the .475 with hard boolits works, a 420 gr WFN at 1329 FPS does this to a deer heart.
No meat damage and 99% of deer on the ground-INSTANTLY. The .44 mag can use a HARD boolit too but velocity and boolit weight will lead to lost deer.
A RN works if you get nose upset to slow the boolit in passage--called "Dwell time."
Get the alloy or nose right and results are amazing.
I have about 180 deer kills with WLN and WFN boolits and know what each does in each caliber.
Just a flat meplat is not the answer.
The wrong choice with a boolit that expands too fast and stops inside can be a lost animal. Same with the wrong bullet so beware of some HP's.
Wrong bullets for any gun can be a disaster. I helped a man in PA drag out a small buck. We had snow, he shot a buck behind the shoulders, it dropped, got up and ran, He tracked and shot again and again until he had 6 shots I covered with my hand. He tracked and shot near 2 miles. He was using a 30-06 with 180 gr Silvertips made for moose size animals.
Not talking bad hits but a bad hit will not work no matter the gun. A guy shot a small doe in Ohio with a 12 ga. Over and over, tracked in the snow until he had 11 shots in her. It was a hank of skin at the end but kept going over and over. We had no doe season so he wanted the farmer to hide her in a barn. Farmer said 'NO." Farmer told me it was shot up so bad, there might have been 4# of meat left.
You can tailor cast to work or fail in the extreme. Sadly, no way to check before you put them to use and see what you get. Forget water, mud, sand or paper.
Then I got my BFR in .500 JRH and made a mold for a WFN. Same stinking problems with no blood trails and deer going 100-120 yards.
I figure the pressure wave from the flat nose was moving tissue out of the way in a secondary wound channel that collapses after boolit passage. Took the wind out of my sails.
I softened the 45-70 boolit and went to a HP and that was disgusting with a whole shoulder destroyed on exit and bloodshot head to tail. TOO MUCH!
I then softened half the nose on the JRH and deer hit the ground before barrel rise. Then I hit bone once and found this.
Entrance wound and ruined the whole neck too. Big boolit is on the moon. 440 gr at 1350 fps is too much on bone. Now the .475 with hard boolits works, a 420 gr WFN at 1329 FPS does this to a deer heart.
No meat damage and 99% of deer on the ground-INSTANTLY. The .44 mag can use a HARD boolit too but velocity and boolit weight will lead to lost deer.
A RN works if you get nose upset to slow the boolit in passage--called "Dwell time."
Get the alloy or nose right and results are amazing.
I have about 180 deer kills with WLN and WFN boolits and know what each does in each caliber.
Just a flat meplat is not the answer.
The wrong choice with a boolit that expands too fast and stops inside can be a lost animal. Same with the wrong bullet so beware of some HP's.
Wrong bullets for any gun can be a disaster. I helped a man in PA drag out a small buck. We had snow, he shot a buck behind the shoulders, it dropped, got up and ran, He tracked and shot again and again until he had 6 shots I covered with my hand. He tracked and shot near 2 miles. He was using a 30-06 with 180 gr Silvertips made for moose size animals.
Not talking bad hits but a bad hit will not work no matter the gun. A guy shot a small doe in Ohio with a 12 ga. Over and over, tracked in the snow until he had 11 shots in her. It was a hank of skin at the end but kept going over and over. We had no doe season so he wanted the farmer to hide her in a barn. Farmer said 'NO." Farmer told me it was shot up so bad, there might have been 4# of meat left.
You can tailor cast to work or fail in the extreme. Sadly, no way to check before you put them to use and see what you get. Forget water, mud, sand or paper.
Josh
Well-Known Member
That is very interesting results and kinda validates one of my thoughts that the proper alloy is far more important than the nose shape. I am not sure what I will do here, I may try a few RN bullets of the proper alloy. Just hunt like I am using a bow, keep em close and do some neck shooting to edge the odds in my favor.
Seeing pictures of wound channels never gets old, and it is the perfect medium to draw conclusions from IMO.
Seeing pictures of wound channels never gets old, and it is the perfect medium to draw conclusions from IMO.