I think I'm going to have to admit defeat.

[Ian]

Guys, I got one that just won't shoot cast bullets. My AR-45. Been struggling with it for a couple of years and have fixed a variety of issues with it, but ultimately it still won't shoot cast accurately.

Since Ramshot True Blue recently came back in stock in a few places, I picked some of that up because it has always been an excellent performer in all of my medium to heavy handgun loads and I have missed dearly not having any of it around in the last five or so years. Ballistically, it does not disappoint. But it didn't fix my problem with the AR-45, either.

First target is from bags at 25 yards with a 3 MOA red dot. This thing has a 16" barrel, mind you. And did I mention the group was shot from bags?

The right hand target was shot immediately after the first with Federal American Eagle ball ammo. The first shot going down on top of the BLL wasn't even a flyer. But look at the chrono data.....pretty pathetic.

The bottom target was fired standing, off-hand, with the magneto-speed chronograph mounted to the revolver's barrel. This is a fixed-sight Uberti with a 4-5/8" barrel and the first three shots were me trying to find paper with this load. Finally figured out where to aim and got a respectable group (for me, anyway). Compare that to the benched rifle group with the same exact ammo. Nuts.



When I first got this upper it was grouping around 2.5" at 50 yards with a bullet style that it won't feed, since then it's been downhill. I've tried Clays, Bullseye, Titegroup, HP-38, Red Dot, Unique, Universal, True Blue, and Herco. I've run the AM 45-230L, 230C, 255C, Lyman 454190, 452374HP, 452664, MP 45-200 SWC, Lee TL-230TC, standard 230TC, 228-1R, some cast with straight WW, some with some tin added, and some cast of 50/50 alloy. I've used Felix lube, SL-68.1, and a couple variations of BLL. I've tried matched and mixed brass. Messed with crimp a lot, to no effect. I don't get any barrel or throat leading with most of the above combinations.

I don't like admitting defeat, but I think I'm going to have to throw in the towel on this one, 20 MOA isn't even fun to shoot...and I have shot it at 100 yards and it's actually more like 25 MOA at that range.

 

[Brad]

Bet there is a sucker over on E-bay chomp at the bit to buy it!

I have only had one gun ever have me close to getting rid of it. My Marln 1894C wouldn't do better than 6-8 inches at 50 yards. Drove me nuts. Fast, slow, in between. I tried every bullet I had, including the 358156 which everyone said shoots so well in these rifles. Ha, my rifle laughed at that bullet too. Only the MP 360640 will group acceptably in the rifle.

I feel for you Ian, this stuff sucks. Maybe this is a sign that you need a 458 Socom?

 

[35 shooter]

That's a bummer for sure. "Why won't it shoot cast" would be running me nuts after trying everything you obviously have.

 

[Brad]

This could be an opportunity to get swage dies for 45 bullets?

 

[Ian]

I dunno. Got a big bucket of .40 brass but for the cost of a swaging setup I could buy quite a few thousand jacketed bullets.

About the only thing I haven't tried is powder-coated bullets.

35's right, the WHY is driving me absolutely nuts. I was getting flash hider strikes originally, fixed that by replacing the birdcage with one registered and regulated by the BATFE. It still shoots cheap factory ball ammo well, so I know the rifle is sound. Last night I took it all apart and cleaned everything, de-leaded the gas system, inspected the crown with a loupe, scrubbed out the barrel, read the light rings in the bore, scrutinized the chamber and throat carefully, checked the headspace, couldn't find a single thing amiss with the rifle except for a tiny bit of lead in the center of three lands from the crown back into the bore about half an inch. Something is off there, like the barrel is flared slightly on one side, but it is very slight and the thing has always shot jacketed well so I doubt it's an issue. I've even dug up some bullets and checked them for gas port damage on the bases and they look fine. The only clue I might have is if someone could video over my shoulder with a high-speed camera and trace the bullet flight path.

 

[fiver]

45 from 40S&W are available pretty reasonably.
you could also get the 6 cavity lee 40 cal TL mold for cores and make them about 240grs without too much trouble.

don't do it.
it's more addictive than casting.

were you shooting at a downward angle?

 

[fiver]

I can also see the anomaly in the lands on the target.

 

[Brad]

Pound cast? How is the throat, steep? That was the issue with my 357 Marlin.

I will admit that nothing is more frustrating than a gun that won't shoot cast but does fine with jacketed.

To avoid the addiction from swaging just be an enabler. Send your 40 brass to fiver and feed his addiction. He can send back ready to load bullets.

I don't even want to know what a set of swage dies runs, bet it is over 500 bucks.

 

[Ian]

Got the .40 mould already.

Actually, I was shooting uphill a bit, but the Celotex backer is pretty shot up and weathered where I pinned the targets and were far from flat so you can't read too much into the bullet holes. Keep in mind the revolver would group the same ammo with me shaking and jerking the trigger, and it was fired from almost the same angle. I'll go study the revolver bullet holes vs. the carbine's again and see if I can't see something there. The AR is obviously doing something different with the ammo than the revolver to group like that.

BTW I'm ignoring the SOCOM comment. I've wanted one really badly for a long time now, but I keep telling myself NO. The whole reason I got an AR-15 in the first place was I wanted a cheap-to-shoot range toy and something really light with short-range punch to carry around with me on my ranchette. For that, the .45 ACP is outstanding. I've priced SOCOM brass, and even though it's available and will work with standard magazines, I just keep telling myself NO.

Might have to take my blackout ARs to the range tomorrow morning to cheer myself up. Those dang things are awesome and group a solid 1.5 MOA out to 200 yards with no effort.

 

[fiver]

many of them are that much each.
the 40-45 pair would be in that ball park.

I talked myself out of the 45 set, the acp's I have just don't need them.
if I had something I really liked and wanted to shoot it, I would buy the set and not look back.
I'm glad I have the 44 set since I have two lever guns that make full use of them and the 445 revolver is a happy camper too.

 

[Brad]

I'm fine with my 223 and 300 BO uppers. The 300 is just so dang way to make shoot well.

Swaging is something I think is neat but I have no interest in doing it. Too much money for my blood.

 

[Ian]

I love this little carbine, it was my first AR and though it has been a major headache to get working right it's just what I wanted and had saved for for nearly a year. It had LOTS of problems, should have sent the damn thing back to Rudy in the first place so he could fix the lemon of a mis-machined Samson handguard, crooked-bored flash hider, sloppy mag well adapter, the bolt lugs he forgot to modify, and had him put a proper back-cut on the muzzle threads, and a few other things one would expect to have been done better on a $1,000 assembled upper. But I'm stubborn so I worked out the bugs myself. Now the magazine springs are breaking (two more bit the dust just today, I'm down to two functioning mags). Gotta call Pro-Mag I guess and pitch a bitch with them over their worthless junk. I just can't seem to see the writing on the wall. Swage dies? Good money after bad? Not sure at this point.

 

[Ian]

Yeah, the BLK is outstanding in an AR. I don't even weight sort the bullets. If there isn't a bad ding in a base edge or an obvious casting void, they get loaded and shot. One of them I've run over 1K rounds without cleaning and only an occasional squirt of oil in the BCG vent holes and though filty it just keeps running and shooting straight. And that's with 12 BHN bullets, too.

 

[fiver]

it is pricey to do some stuff.
I got a little bit of stuff gave to me, then found a bit more here and there.
and cobbled some others together from bits and pieces.

I need to order another die and another core mold to streamline my 223 process better.
but once you shoot some groups like the ones I posted in the 'this one should shoot' thread, your hooked 100%, it's worse when you use them to shoot little varmints or a deer.

 

[Ian]

My "easy button" is the paper jacket, for the same reasons. But I doubt I'll PP the .45 ACP.

 

[quicksylver]

Tried a scope on there or different RD ?

 

[Ian]

Tried a scope on there or different RD ?

No, but groups have historically been so bad with cast in this carbine that I've suspected it frequently. Then I shoot some jacketed, and re-discover that it's not the optic, it's the bullet.

Observe the target on the upper right, shot with ball ammo not even really trying hard, fired right after the group at top left with my cast loads. Most of the cast bullet loads I've shot through it group in the 4-6" range at 25 yards, while cheap factory ball will do well under an inch if I try hard. At 100 yards cast groups are over two feet in diameter and Winchester white box will do 6". All with the same red dot sight.

One thing I'd like to brag on here, also to kinda support a comment I made a few weeks ago about one powder for everything, is the standard deviation I was getting out of the True Blue load. Single digits for 10+ shots with mixed, "highly experienced" brass in both the revolver and gas-operated carbine. The Federal factory loads gave me an SD of almost 35 fps and ES of 90 fps for just five shots! The only thing I've seen come as close to being this consistent in the .45 ACP with cast bullets is Titegroup. Also, what can give you 930 fps with a 234-grain bullet out of a 4-5/8" out of a revolver, have low enough pressure to still put a little soot on the outside of the brass, and have single-digit SDs?

 

[quicksylver]

The last time I took my chrony out a couple of match AR Match shooters brought their favorite loads to be tested , their SD's were tearible both said screw the SD I am using this load...so I know it an indicator but does not mean it will necessarily be the most accurate....but there is something else going on there..

I have only seen one of those in use for awhile and if I remember correctly the accuracy was about like what you are getting with your cast.....

You haven"t mentioned alloy...or I missed that....

You might try some Berry bullets or plated ones, they are sort of between cast and jacketed..

Also a bore treatment /conditioner..

 

[fiver]

I was thinking try the plated too.
I have had some good luck with plated bullets, most of it doing stuff I didn't know it wasn't supposed to do.
the double strike stuff [berry's] usually has a better jacket on it, and you wouldn't have to fiddle with the loads.

after thinking this over a bit more, I think you have a slightly crooked chamber to barrel angle here.
just enough to crunch one side of the boolit when the round is fired.

 

[358156 hp]

Ian, have you tried heat-treated vs. non heat-treated? You've already covered almost all of my "punch list" for CB accuracy. You aren't talking about leading, so I don't know if you'd gain anything by throating the barrel, although a crooked throat could conceivably affect a cast bullet more than jacketed. Did you try slugging the last first and last few inches of the bore to compare the results, and hopefully find out if there's anything out of the ordinary near the muzzle? If that spot near the muzzle is part of the issue, you could counterbore the muzzle a bit to eliminate it. I also like fivers chamber suggestion. You've had enough issues with this upper in the past that a poorly cut chamber wouldn't surprise anyone.