Improving the SAA with 1860 Army grip frame

[Pistolero]

The first Colt revolver I ever bought was a 1861 Navy 3rd Gen Colt. I like the gun
but the grip frame is a bit small. I have had that one since the 70s. About 15 years
ago, I bought a Pieta replica 1860 Army, which looks a lot like the 1861 Navy, both
really handsome guns, IMO. In any case, the 1860 Army grip really felt good and I
appreciate the slightly larger size.

About 10 years ago I ran across a bargain priced USFA Rodeo, a modern high quality
clone of the Colt SAA. I have never been able to really appreciate the SAA revolvers, IMO
the grip frame is just too small. Without measuring, it feels smaller than the 61 Navy,
but might be the same, don't know.

In any case, Ian mentioned that he had a Uberti clone with an 1860 grip frame......wheels
whirring to life. I had wondered several years back whether the various Colt grip frames
were interchangeable.

Last year, I bought a raw casting (well, Ruger did do a couple of important machining passes
at the interface surface to the main frame) in SS of a Bisley grip frame to put onto my .45 Convertible
Bhawk. That project went well - basically to explore whether I liked the Bisley grip frame without
buying a whole Bisley Ruger. On that one, the grip is OK, but doesn't really set me
on fire. Haven't switched it back, may need to shoot it then switch at the range, and shoot the
other one, back to back to decide. Fitting wasn't too hard, so it helped my comfort level and
understanding, although the Bhawk isn't exactly the same, they are very similar to SAA.

OK, now I have some experience fitting a grip frame, and Ian triggers something that I had thought
about enough to check and find out that there are folks who apparently make money buying
Pietta BP revolvers and tearing them apart and selling the pieces. Presumably, they make a
profit, but regardless - the grip frames are available. Not super cheap, but about $150 got me
a new 1860 grip frame with solid style grip, from the same seller, so presumably from the same
gun.

Initial measurements showed good likelihood of fit, so I dove in. The only real problem was
that the Pietta rear holes in the trigger guard were about .012 too close together, and screws would
bind. I drilled the holes out about .006", and the head counterbores, too, but that wasn't enough.
Finally just kludged it a bit by pushing the brass trigger guard (a cosmetic disadvantage, IMO, YMMV)
against the drill bit to wallow it out maybe .010. This did it, and the screws went in. The screws
in the steel backstrap went right in, no issues at all. Did not get the screw that joins the two
parts that make up the grip frame, contacted the seller about that as it is an oddball. Currently they
are not joined, and they do spring slightly, so the brass trigger guard sticks out of the grip about 1/16"
at the bottom. Ugly. Loosening the top screws on the back strap and then putting in the bottom screw
and tightening them back will solve this when I get the screw. This will be easy with the screw,
and the original SAA screw is nothing like the 1860 one.

The backstrap extends slightly above the frame at the top, a normal fitting issue. I will file this
down later as it is out of the way and only cosmetic. It will need rebluing.

Another issue is that the Pietta brass trigger guard was pretty thick, and the trigger tip hit it.
I ground off 1/16th inch from the tip of the trigger, which does not affect the trigger face
at all since the tip was ground pointed. I then filed out about .050 from the trigger guard
inside (still rough, needs final shaping and polish yet) to get clearance. 1860 hammer spring
is wrong for SAA, but SAA hammer spring fit the 1860 grip, after drilling the hole in the spring out
by about .003, just a hair difference in diam, even though threads were totally diff -
I guess Pietta uses what is convenient on the insides.

But, I love the gun's new feel! This is a huge improvement, IMO. It appears to me that, within
manufacturing and fitting tolerances, the grip frames of all of the Colt revolvers, BP and smokeless
from 1851 to 1873 are "basically" interchangeable, although a pure drop in cannot be reasonably
expected. Grip frames from two SAAs are not perfectly interchangeable and they are ground and
finished to the frame.

So, if you have always thought the SAA grip frame was too small - it is fixable.

Pix.


Here is the old grip laid on top. They are aligned well at the mainframe interface area. You can see
how much longer it is.


It doesn't look like much, but for me it is a huge improvement.

Bill

 

[smokeywolf]

Very nice Bill. I always have liked the contrast of brass against bluing.

 

[Ian]

I like the brass too, my weakness being the triple contrast of polished brass, blued barrels, and color case-hardened receivers.

The 1860 Army grip frame has long been a favorite of mine as well, and the "Peacemaker" grip frame a bane of that model and all of its clones/imitations. FWIW, Bill, it has always taken a vise and a lot of colorful language for me to get the two pieces of grip frame to mesh while I put the screw in without cross-threading it or slipping with the screwdriver and marring something or removing a chunk of flesh. Par for the course I'd say, particularly if you install the hammer spring at the same time.

A photo to reflect my preferences: The SS Ruger NV on top as mesquite root stocks by yours truly and a rock maple spacer on the bottom to extend the grip frame about 7/16". Ruger committed the same error as Colt's Manufacturing did in 1873, IMNSHO. Below, missing cylinder (it lives in a sealed jar of Ed's red, along with the percussion nipples) is a Pietta 1860 copy which should have the exact grip frame Bill used on his SAA. Below that is my all-time favorite revolver, an Uberti 1872 Open Top, again with the 1860 grip frame but a steel one. At the bottom are the pair of Taylor & Company's revolvers that started this, the one on the left being a convertible, standard Peacemaker clone and the one on the right being (apparently) a limited run of special Uberti Peacemaker clones sold through Taylor's with the grip frame they all should have come with in the first place. I waited three years to get one, it is worth it. My only regret is that model didn't come with options for either a 7.5" barrel nor the ACP cylinder, but the ACP cylinder from the other one fits and times correctly in either so it actually spends most of its time in the one with the longer grip frame.



Yes, the Ruger is loaded Since it has a transfer bar and will safely carry a full cylinder, and being SS can stand to live in a leather holster year 'round, it's one of the working guns of the operation around here.

 

[smokeywolf]

Although my paws, while a bit chubby, aren't terribly large, making the original sized SAA grip comfortable. However, like y'all, the grip on the 1860 Colt does feel and fit a bit better for me.

 

[Ian]

I found it, in the on-line catalog at least: http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/hand...single-action-revolver-series/gunfighter.html

They call it the "Gunfighter" series.

 

[fiver]

that titch longer grip would keep my little finger from sliding under the frame and throwing shots high.
I have thought about attempting to make some longer grips for the USFA's that folded under the frame and met in the middle a few times just for this reason.
they are accurate enough to warrant the attention.

 

[Brad]

I just tuck my finger under the grip. It is like a Ruger made them the right size for me.

 

[Eutectic]

I just tuck my finger under the grip. It is like a Ruger made them the right size for me.

Pretty looking job Pistolero!!!

I think I agree with Brad on this..... Unless you shoot long range with the butt on something.... Then maybe you should get your pinky pinched to remember you won't group as well that way..... especially if 'way' is a l o n g 'way'! Everything uniform shot to shot..... But I preach to the choir!

Grips are funny! Everybody has one; everyone likes a different one! I tolerate a lot of grips. In single actions I don't like the "Dragoon" trigger guard on the Super Blackhawk. I don't like the Bisley grip either! My father hated it and the ol' boys that taught him to shoot that were born in the 1800's really hated it! So "like it" is a modern thing I guess!

You fight to shoot really small grips well.... but it can be done. Worst for me was a North American miniature revolver.22 Short. You could barely get a hold of it and then couldn't fire it! I finally got some surprising groups though.... I had to press the grip into a cupped shooting shooting hand with my off hand thumb!

Thought I'd include a 'story' I had about 'losing my grip' on a pistol spanning 56 years for hopefully your entertainment. This is not aimed at anyone unless it is me for totally 'losing' grip of holding onto a small grip I wanted not only once, but Twice!

Pete


"Get a grip!"

I want to take you back to 1961.... I had just gone to work for Standard Oil. My father went to work for them when he got home from WW2. Standard Oil let us build a rifle range on some peninsula property they had in 1953. I helped! (Or at least thought I did!) It ended up a nice place a couple years later. 100 and 200 yard rifle with military type targets from behind a berm that could raise or lower! Pistol range went to 50 yards and had 20 positions with hydraulic swinging into position targets! Gongs at the pistol range and two 18" ones at 230yds and 240yds. (from 200 bench) We worked but Standard Oil spent the $$$$. Before the above 1961 date I already knew most of the shooters!

My Dad was a range officer. He (we) were always there on Sunday mornings. "Burgie" worked for my father and shot a lot. This begins my story.....

My Dad and were shooting at 100 yards that day on my request for testing a load. Burgie showed up. Burgie pulled out a little Colt box... It looked old.... It had a Colt Baby Hammerless .25 Auto in it. My Dad made a face as he was blunt (and gave it to me) but I stood in awe! Don't ask me why... but I've always loved that little Colt! Especially this nickel plated one! Burgie told us a story then. His mother had just passed away and the little .25 was her's. Burgie went on to say that his father had to take a job away from home during the Great Depression and he bought the little Colt for his wife.

Now my eyes really bugged out! A little Remington box came out of Burgie's stuff. It was Remington. It was mostly green with white trim... The bullets had Cupronickel jackets! Burgie continued while I still held the box. "I don't think Mom ever shot this gun...." He said with melancholy. I had just counted 44 rounds in the little box... My Dad broke the silence saying.. "Let young Pete finish his test and we'll go over to the pistol range." Burgie laughed and said: Yeah... We better try that 50 feet bench. Without even thinking I blurted out.....

I probably should say my Dad started me early shooting. Even handguns.... I even bought a new Colt SAA .45 Colt at 13 years old when they just came back out (Series 2 ?) My father bought it with my paper route money. It's a .44 Special now. Long range with handguns fascinated me.. then..... ! Fascinates me now for that matter!
I even wrote several letters to Elmer Keith and always got an answer! Seems he gave me even better instruction and advice when he found out I was a teenager! He was a grand old man!

Without even thinking I blurted out.... "Heck Burgie! Shoot it from here!" Burgie grinned... "You might little Pete (I'm a Jr.) but not this ol' man!" Things were quiet. My Dad had a way of setting me up. I hated it then; love it now! Go figure! So Dad pops up.. "Heck Burg, I bet the kid here can hit the gong up there with that thing!" Burgie's mouth dropped open... Funny how Dad's are.... He knew I wanted to shoot that little gun. Burgie jarred me back then.... "That.... I would like to see!" My Dad looked at me smiling..... "Show'em kid!"
The clip was still in the gun and it had 6 of the old Remington loads in it! The gun had never been shot! I bagged in and feed a round. The gun was dinky! I could barely get my middle finger a hold on it. The shiny fixed sights were horrible but young eyes can do many things! "You going to sell this to me if I can ring it Burgie?" "Heck, I might even give it to you if you can ring it! How far is that?" "130 yards to the left one...." which seemed to offer me the best sight picture.

I was contemplating where to hold when my Dad barked out.... "WHAT YOU WAITING FOR... CHRISTMAS?" I jumped.... My Dad was in the Navy but I thought him a Marine boot camp sergeant back then! "POP!" The little gun had more spunk than I thought! "About four feet low and a little right", my Dad barked from the scope. "POP"! "High a couple feet, a foot right." Burgie was quiet. Man! You can barely hang onto this grip I thought! Shooting right I thought as I adjusted... "POP!"... Ding! "You'll never do that lucky shot again!" Burgie needled. The 4th and 5th shots missed only a foot or so..... I tightened for the last shot... Then loosened that tight middle finger a little.... "POP!" Ding!"
Man I loved that little gun! Burgie shot another clip at 50 feet and left. He couldn't stand the grip! He growled about it every shot! I thought that was a good sign.
"You like that little gun, don't you?" My Dad spoke up as we were leaving. "Boy! I sure do!..... Hope he sells it to me!" "He won't"! My Dad said..... "Huh?" I stammered..... "Kid, Sometimes it doesn't pay to show too much of your stuff.." Words of wisdom as my answer from Burgie later was.... "No...It belonged to my Mom."

55 years later, my childhood friend, who is a gun dealer and professional hunter picked up a Colt Baby Hammerless .25..... Almost as nice as Burgie's so many years ago. This one was blued. He had heard my story several times over the years and knew I liked the little Colt. I even gave him a box of the hard to find Winchester Expanding bullet load for .25. Months later I thought to ask him how it shot...... "I couldn't even hold it to shoot it! The grip is useless or for a woman's hand or something!" "So you'll sell it to me then!" A .... L O N G silence followed..... "I got a heck of a price for it..."
I guess one can say that dinky little grip slipped completely out of my hand just twice over 56 years!

 

[freebullet]

Don't care for the short grip stock either! Feels like the folks that designed them didn't have pinkies.

Well done!

 

[Ian]

Humans were generally smaller in the 1800s than today, but how we went from the wildly popular 1860 Army to the 1873 SAA in just over ten years still seems backwards to me from an ergonomic standpoint. Perhaps the Army spec'd the shorter grip frame??? I've read a lot of history and have a lot of books on the Colt's revolvers (and other period guns) but never got a clear picture of whys and wherefores of the exact spec's for the 1873. I do know that after Colt's death the company successors poured a lot of money and "pull" into insuring that Rolling White's patent (that Sam Colt scoffed at and turned down the rights to when he had the chance) would not be renewed in 1873.

 

[fiver]

I think they taught to hold the revolver higher in the hand so it rolled back under recoil,
then it was shoveled forward by the thumb, re-gripped, and the thumb cocked the hammer.

the more modern method of holding the grip steady with both hands and taking the recoil back in the shoulders doesn't work so well one handed or when riding a horse.

I don't care for some of my Ruger's grips mainly because the medallions abrade the side of my thumb when I use the older method.

 

[Pistolero]

I got the screw to join the halves today. Looks much better.

Now, to the range.

Fiver - that rolling in the hand thing might explain it, but the larger grip works
fine for that, too.

 

[Ian]

that rolling in the hand thing might explain it, but the larger grip works
fine for that, too.

Sure did. I submit the body count from the war between the states as evidence.

 

[Pistolero]

but Ian, those things are NOT GUNS. I have it on good authority from the highest levels of the ATF that they
are not guns.

But all those folks are still dead.

Bill

 

[aniBlue]

I know this is an old thread, but I thought I would throw my two cents in on this. If you are dealing with an original Colt 1873 SSA, regardless of the generation as I understand they use the 1851 Navy grips. At least that is what Colt was supposed to have done, but I am not sure that is the case on the newer generations SSA as I have noticed a size difference between my 1851 Confederate Navy and the 1873 Colt SSA guns I have held.

Now if you are going to use parts from a black powder clone, the old defunct Amri San Marcos backstrap, trigger guard and grips are the closest to the 1851/1860/1861 Colt guns in their shape. And those in my opinion would be the better gun handle parts to use, so you do not cause people to think your original Colt SSA is a Pietta made gun. As Pietta black powder gun’s are known for having the Pietta tail in their grips, which will cause you to hold the gun differently. The only grips you will find that will not fit a Colt SSA right, are the Pietta 1851 Confederate Navy brass frame .36 caliber grips. This has at least been my experience, with a Pietta 1851 Confederate Navy brass framed .36 made in 1972. This is due to the brass frame actually being smaller than the steel frames, least in their older frames. It may have changed with their newer brass frame gun’s. But yes the 1851/1860/1861 and 1873 gun’s use all the same parts when it comes to handles and trigger works with that one exception. You will also find non of the Italian clones use the same screw threads and will not interchange with Colt gun’s. Pietta uses M6, Uberti I think uses 5.52mm or something and I think Colt uses like a 5/64ths or something.