Is the round nose pistol bullet not politically correct anymore ?

[Rick]

For paper or steel I'm not too concerned with terminal ballistics.

Yep, that's the point (pun intended ). For targets you'll look for the bullet style that is the most accurate, feeds well etc. For hunting, defense etc. a half inch more or less group size has little importance. Effect on target is much more critical.

If such weren't the case there would be one bullet style and we would all be shooting it.

 

[quicksylver]

Just have to throw this in.

I absolutely love the way RN bullets slide into a single action, sooooo cool !

As for accuracy, I have targets shot at 50 feet ,offhand
That are difficult to tell if they have 5 rnds or one.

Ruger BH 45 Colt.

The 45 Colt loaded to the original BP velocities not much will escape it, semi RN or not.

 

[williamwaco]

Ford/chevy for me.

When i want to avoid SWCs i like RNFP or TC.

I use the TCin all 9mm loads and frequently for plinkers in .38 Special.
The Lee 256-124-TC is a tack driver over 3.2gr Bulls Eye in my .38s.

 

[Paul]

Gotta say I'm pretty partial to the I'm pretty partial to the old 452374 in 45 ACP. That design shoots well in a convertible BH cylinder with a loooonnnnng throat.
Of course, the only thing I shoot with it is bullseyes.....

 

[Dale53]

I have been shooting my own cast bullets in excess of 65 years in handguns. I grew up on a farm and had many opportunities for small game hunting with both rifle and handgun over the years. There were NO deer in SW Ohio at the time I was growing up. That came later, much later, but the lessons learned when small game hunting also worked on Deer (when they came into the area much later).

At any rate, being a STRONG admirer of the writings of Elmer Keith through his little blue book of 1936, "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads", I naturally gravitated to the SWC. When I started target shooting NRA Bullseye, then full wadcutters were used as well as the SWC's. On game, the round nose is a failure, even on small game. The SWC and full wadcutter, on the other hand work like magic. Close targets were shot in the head and further shots, through the "slats". No meat wasted and never had to shoot them twice, either. The .22 rimfire solid was quite poor as a game getter. Body shot squirrels often got away to die but not recoverable. If you used hollow points, they were too destructive.

At any rate, SWC's, wadcutters, and much later RFN (round flat nose or LBT's description of their WFN (wide flat nose) or LFN (long flat nose) worked even better on game.

I do have a Lyman four cavity mold for the 358511 (158 gr. round nose) that I used during the speed loading section of PPC shooting competition.

My reasoning at the time was I wanted a bullet useful for more than one thing. Money was tight and I really coundn't afford a bunch of molds for special purposes. The SWC cut clean holes in paper or flesh, shot well and delivered shock well, when needed. What's not to like?

That's my reasoning at the time (this from a guy that now owns over 80 molds)...

Dale53

 

[Rally Hess]

My experience on game mirror yours Dale53. I've had some bad experiences with RN bullets in pistol calibers, primarily .38's, because that is what I shoot the most of, and started with. I was shooting a S&W 15 at the time (still have it) and got a S&W 586, thinking I could get a liitle more velocity out of the .357. Had a bad experience with a jackrabbit shot just behind the front legs. Then bought a Marlin 1894 in .357 and the RN fed well in it, gave more velocity, and shot well. Had a real bad experience with a coyote I chased all over two sections and had to shoot a second time. The coyote was quatering to me the initial shot. I hit it in the left front shoulder and it exited the right side at the fourth rib. It was on three legs the whole time and stopped often. It was broken pasture,grass (Ft. Hood ,Tx). I caught it standing next to a junk pile for the second shot. Broadside, 30 yards, in the neck and actually hit the spine, deflected up slightly and exited. I skun that coyote just to autopsy it. Both entry holes were smaller than .38 and the initial exit hole was the same. The second bullet after hitting the spine fragmented and I found a small piece of it by the spine. The shoulderblade had a slighly larger than .38 and elongated hole in it as did the inside of the ribcage, I assumed because of the angle of entry. Trauma and small hole in the rear of the left lung and small amount of blood forward of the diaghram. That coyote had to of traveled nearly 3 miles within those two sections with me pushing it. I couldn't believe it took two shots after doing the autopsy.
That coyote really got me to thinking about bullet shapes and alloys. I believe firmly that the tools I use, either guns, traps or snares should be the most humane and effective when harvesting any wildlife. I've had much better results with flat or hollow point bullets, and believe transmitted shock from those two types of bullets are more lethal on either man or animal, so pursue that venue currently.

 

[smokeywolf]

Correct me if I wrong here but, when the round nose bullet was designed and put into use, it was cast of pure or near pure lead and seated on top of a charge of black powder. Even if a smallish, say 32 caliber round nose that is a 7 or 8 BHN hits a 2 or 4 legged animal I'm thinkin' it's going to do a fair amount of damage.

Smokeless powder allowed higher velocities and higher velocities demanded harder bullets. A round nose that's much above 10 or 12 BHN may not show much expansion unless as mentioned, it hits a bone.

 

[Winelover]

Probably the reason why, muzzle loading rifles and revolvers work very well for hunting big game. Particularly, when it comes to shorter tracking distances. Been, my experiences, anyways. I strive for the softest alloy, at moderate velocities, for all my deer hunting with center fires. I'm not a HP fan. WFN's or SWC's are my preference.

 

[Dale53]

I've done a bit of muzzleloading competition in my time and been in on several "autopsies" of round ball, pure lead, muzzleloading shot game including deer. First of all, the velocities of the round ball are considerably higher than a typical .32 or .38 Special. Second, the round ball is extremely "blunt". Add those qualities to dead soft lead and you get great expansion. I remember one deer shot by a friend on a southern deer hunt. The .45 Caliber round ball expanded to near quarter size and was found under the skin on the far side (deer hit behind the shoulder). The deer ran and if my friend hadn't been a gifted tracker the deer would not have been found. Lack of the second hole left little blood trail. The answer to quick kills using a muzzle loader rifle is a large caliber. .50 is good (about half the deer run after a good hit behind the shoulder) a .54 is better (most drop at the shot). This from a confirmed muzzle loader hunter who has taken dozens of deer. Round balls are not "ineffective" but bigger is definitely better.

Back to the topic on hand, I am a fan of "all around" projectiles. That is supplied by a SWC, a WFN, and a LFN. My current choice would be a WFN for relatively close range and a SWC or LFN for longer ranges of pistol caliber bullets whether fired from rifles or revolvers. The WFN or LFN have a MUCH better record for feeding well in lever action rifles. SWC just don't work well in those actions. However, in the revolvers that is not an issue.

FWIW
Dale53

 

[Ben]

I think this has been an enlightening and fruitful discussion !

Ben

 

[Elkins45]

I think your use of the term "political correct" is interesting. I would think that if we are using the term as it was originally coined that the RN would be the MOST politically correct bullet design. Think about it: New Jersey won't let you leave the house with a gun loaded with hollow points but a RN bullet is OK. Police departments are routinely impugned for using "cruel and excessively deadly" HP ammo as opposed to the traditional RN loads of yesteryear, or the FMJ RN of military ball.

The RN has lost favor maybe, but it is not politically incorrect, or at least no more so than any other sort of ammo. Depending on who you ask, ALL bullets could be considered politically incorrect. I doubt Hildabeast likes any of them very much.

Interestingly enough, I bought an older Ideal 38 RN mold off eBay about six years ago. It was the first mold I ever owned that wasn't a Lee and wasn't aluminum. Boy, was I impressed once it came up to temperature! I never knew what I was missing all those years.

I have the Lee six cavity RN tumble lube 9mm mold. I intentionally chose it because I wanted a bullet that would feed reliably. As others have said, I wasn't concerned with terminal ballistics because I don't plan on ever carrying cast bullet reloads in a self-defense gun. Nothing feeds like a RN.

 

[Ben]

Elkins 45 :


" Nothing feeds like a round nose "..........You got that right ! !

Here's an " Oldie ".
IDEAL 358246. The outside of the mold has a few dings, etc. The mold cavity looks pristine.
I'd like to know how old this mold really is ? ? I'm 65 yrs. old ( born in 49' ), I figure the mold is older than I am.

No vent lines inside of the mold halves.
Cast a .3615" bullet.
I've sized these to .360" and lubed with Ben's Red with an over-coat of Ben's Liquid Lube.

I thought about trying some of these out as " plinker rounds " from my two , 358 Win. rifles with 8.0 grs. of Red Dot.

I used a flat nose punch in my sizer . I wanted a " small flat " on the end of the nose. I got it. Now , I can run these through my two lever action rifles .

A Stainless circa 1983, Rossi Model 92 , 357 Mag. and a 1894 Marlin , CBC, 38 Spec.

Ben













Notice that the numbers are not in a straight line and some were struck very lightly, while others were struck much harder. Look at the difference in the " strike " on the 2 and the 6.

 

[RicinYakima]

Ben,

Your mould is younger than you, but by only a little. The '246 was Ideal's first 38 S&W Military (soon to be call 38 S&W Special in smokeless) mould design. It was available off and on until about WWII. Then they were special order only. The preferred 38 smokeless mould design was 358311, with one larger and wider lube groove. The "big pin hole" Ideal mould is from the 1950-1955 era.

HTH, Ric

 

[KHornet]

Probably have three or 4 round nose single cavs from times past. Brad HP'd one of them in 38, and it shoots very well! That said, It is a pain to cast single cav hand gun bullets. Don't mind casting HP rifle bullets in a single cav, and the bigger they are the less I mind, because I am not going to shoot a gazillion of them.

 

[Rally Hess]

Smokeywolf,
That's part of my point. That bullet was where it needed to be, cast of coww, and running at @1200 fps. I still believe to this day that a softer allow, wider meplat or an HP would not have required a chase. That bullet/alloy just didn't transmit enough shock to cause any real terminal damage. Had it not disabled it's leg I'd have never seen it again. Definately not a good scenario for the coyote.
Shortly there after, I was transfered to Zwiebruken, Germany. I didn't take any rifles just three pistols and some of my casting equipment. As luck would have it, there was a pretty good Rod and Gun club at the concern, so I got to shoot pistol quite a bit. They had a indoor pistol range, a couple buried 4' corrugated culverts buried, that ended in a dirt berm. Pretty handy for recovering lead, once you got to know the people running the range. The percussion was horrible in that range and it had one 12" vent fan. A .357 load of 20 grs of WW296 behind a 125 gr SJHP made quite an impression on anybody close by. LOL
I went there 6 weeks ahead of my wife and kids, three days before Xmas. My wife bought me a Lee 155 gr HP mould and brought it with her when she came over(she had some help ordering it). I got to cast and recover the bullets from three moulds I had, all using the same coww alloy. The Lee 155 HP was super slow to cast with but recovered bullets showed way more expansion and usually fragmented noses shooting into that sand berm. I didn't have the money to hunt there, nor access to anything to soften my alloy. Once we got back stateside I played with that mould some and shot a couple coyotes with it. Both were DRT and way more trauma than the Texas coyote. Both were MN coyotes which are about 30% larger than Tx coyotes and way better furred. Alloy was 60%coww and 40% pure.

 

[KHornet]

Rn bullets have their place, just like wadcutters. Have a 6 banger lee 45 colt rn, for my Vaccarro (or how ever you spell it) Shoots great at 25 yds, and breaks clays, and rolls cans well, and that's what I bought it for.

 

[JWFilips]

Ben,
The IDEAL 358246 is the bullet I use in my Marlin 366 .35 rem for plinking 5 to 6 grains of bulleye makes for a light ( & Quite) and very accurate load out to 75 yards
That what I'll be using for the Turkey in my yard if I get a chance at him....(shouldn't get the neighbors alarmed........too much!)
I don't have the mould but I get them from Matt's Bullets he calls it his 38 S&W bullet I load them mostly for my wife's S&W Terrier snubby His mould drops at .362 so I do nt size them for her pistol nor the Marlin

 

[Ben]

You know Jim........just because something is old, doesn't always mean it is out dated.
I like my IDEAL 358246 mould, it can do a lot of tricks in handguns and in my Lever .35 cal. rifles and my two .358 Win. rifles.

Ben

 

[RicinYakima]

So right, Ben.

 

[RicinYakima]

Here is a 1925 -1926 vintage Belding and Mull mould that I have been fixing up to work again. Hopefully I can get out and shoot some of these this week. What is interesting is that this was one of Elmer Keith's first nose forms. While he said they shot well, they took up too much of the case volume and he wanted a true flat nose. It appears that he and his friend Croft did not find B&M much interested to making new designs; so when the Lyman family bought out the rights and left over parts of Ideal, they went to Lyman.