Lesson learned

[Ian]

I installed a Wilson EJECTOR. The extractor is factory and the only thing I have replaced is the spring, after several thousand rounds. The Ed Brown recommendation is duly noted. What you're describing sounds like common sense to me, I'll go back and do some checking on all three guns because I never really scrutinized that part.

Brad, your magazine lips appear tapered, is that the "hybrid"? My WC magazines have parallel lips and then the abrupt flare. The parallel lips keep the rim down too long in my GCNM and the nose bites the top of the chamber unless loaded super-short (1.220" IIRC, front band near flush with the case mouth). More and proper taper crimp might fix it, or a hybrid magazine, or extractor work, or.......I could just shoot TC bullets or ball profile. I'm not scoring targets so I don't care if the holes are clean.

Another reason I'm throwing in the towel on the MP bullet is it won't feed in my AR with the existing magazine system. Or rather, it feeds beautifully but will not let the bolt stroke back across the next round in the magazine without destroying the case. Nature of the system, unfortunately. I want ONE kind of ammo, and load it on a three-station progressive like I've done for years and years using a .470-ish crimp. A TC bullet similar to the Lee is what I'm after, and the accuracy of the SWC, hopefully I can get both. That MP bullet shoots like a laser, which is about the only good thing I have to say about it.

 

[Brad]

That is a taper to the lips. The hybrid has shorter lips like a wadcutter magazine but with a taper instead of parallel lips. The taper lets the read of the round rise just enough to keep the nose from climbing while the rim slips under the extractor.

If you want to borrow a magazine PM your address and I will send one your way for some testing. I have 6 of these magazines and if I was going to buy more this is what I would likely get.

I need to get to the range this weekend and see how the ejection pattern changes. Sure would be nice to have a smaller area to search for brass.

 

[Ian]

I have more things to check when I get home tonight. What I'm trying to do is get all three pistols working with same mags and ammo, plus ammo that will work in my AR. Right now each is a special-needs child. You and Bill are helping me understand the system better. It appears that I should have spent more time reading some of the great tomes on the 1911, but then again I didn't have all that much trouble with mine until I tried this light, SWC bullet.

 

[Pistolero]

OK, I took a pic of the extractor from my old Gold Cup. This gun was used in IPSC for about 7-8 years of
serious competition, probably around 70,000 or more round through it. Can't be absolutely certain that this
is the original extractor but finish and wear fit with my memory of never replacing anything beyond the rear
sight pin and then at around 55K rounds, the rear sight actually broke. Also replaced the front sight with
a more secure one. Once I figured out how to properly put on a front sight, never had one for me or anyone
else come off. As usual, the workmanship on the factory installations were often extremely poor, which is
why the front sights would pop off. Installed correctly, which is not particularly hard or novel, and they
stay forever.

The radius and polish on the bottom corner of the extractor is what you want for smoothest possible
sliding of the rim under the extractor. This is part of the idea that this is a controlled round feed design,
as intended by JB, but with early release mags, it turns into a lottery-feeding system..... not an improvement.



Most factory extractors have a flat chamfer at 45 degrees on this edge, and that is OK, but rounding it with a
tiny Swiss file and then polishing like this is helpful. Note the blue worn off of the extractor pressure pad just
behind the extractor groove. This is where you are providing a consistent preload force towards the center of the
slide when you set the extractor tension to a 3-5 lb push fit at the rear. This is a leaf spring, and only held in the
slide firmly at the rear, about 1/2" length. Proper preload pushes this front pad against the tunnel, giving a consistent
location and proper tension preload on the hook. This gives the more consistent ejection and reliable extraction.
Also, excessive preload (more than 5 lbs or so to seat the extractor flush with the rear of the slide) can cause
higher forces of the round sliding up under the extractor. Add in a non-polished and only chamfered extractor,
AND A ROUGH BREECH FACE and you take too much energy to slide the round up the face and under the extractor,
slowing everything and can cause jams. So, polishing a rough breech face with a wooden stick and 360 grit
wet or dry to remove tool marks or extremely rough sandblast finish seen on some will help feeding a lot, too.
I have seen guns jam when the only real issue was a super rough breech face.

These are standard things that are done in a "tune up" by a good 1911 smith to make the guns feed super
smoothly. Are they always needed? No, when you use full power jacketed 230 ball ammo, the jacket is
ultra slick on the feed ramp and the slide energy is very high, and can overcome these other "issues". With
lower power and SWC ammo, removing impediments is helpful.

Actually, I learned a lot from a tiny, self-published book by a guy from Oklahoma who
used to sell it at gun shows for $15. Also would spend some time chatting with him
at gun shows with a particular issue, or asking questions. He was very generous with
his time and immense knowledge. I try to help when I can in passing it on when someone
asks. I think he was an Air Force armorer and worked on them for years. I am blanking
on the name and about 10 years ago was the last time I saw him after a year or two of
absence from the gun show circuit. I said it was good to see him, and he said his health
was failing and he didn't know how much longer he could do it. Never saw him again.
Wish him well, but fear he has passed. Steve Nastoff was always educational to talk to
about 1911 issues, nice guy and heck of a 1911 smith. Bill Laughridge used to set up
shop at our IPSC Indoor Championships in the 80s and it was good to spend time
learning from him. Another easy to get along with guy, some others are not so much.

Remembered the name of the guy from Oklahoma, Ken Hallock. If you ever see his
little, plain white book, buy it. Been out of print for a long time, simple hand sketches
and typewriter written, but good info. Oriented towards the old days when welding up
and peening were the ways you rebuilt old 1911s, nobody made them but Colt and
the government contractors in WW2. Couldn't buy a new frame and slide and fit
them without hammering, peening, welding etc to get the old, loose military parts
to fit properly.

Ian, what does your breech face look like? A rough breech face can also hold the
back of the round too low, along with a overtight extractor with a bad bottom corner.
Old military ones sometimes had square sharp corners on the bottom.

Bill

 

[Brad]

My extractor has a bevel on the lower corner but it isn't that polished or rounded.
The breech face on mine is nice and smooth. I like that, makes it easier to clean up.

 

[Pistolero]

Smooth breech face is very good, bevel is OK, especially if there are no issues,
and that is good looking ammo. I am guessing that is a Lee 200 SWC, they are
a bit more pointed (smaller meplat) than most H&G 68s, although even H&G genuine
molds have some variation over the years. Missed your great pix until now, it was
on the last page and this AM when I opened, it was on the next page.

I suspect that Ian's breech faces might be rough, and possibly excessive preload on
the extractor, maybe even sharp lower corners. Definitely needs a hybrid mag,
which is why Colt, in one of their really GOOD moves, has stuck with hybrid
lip designs all through the years.

Waiting for Ian's report. Could be nothing but the mags and the lack of TC.

Bill

 

[Ian]

Sorry, been fooling with 300 BLK stuff. My SA is in my desk at work where it lives, but the Colt and Kimber are here and I took them apart. Yes, they're dirty, they get shot and oiled a lot but cleaned little.







One thing that struck me was how off-set the extractor and guide rails are on the Kimber vs. the Colt. Kimber is on the left. Notice the Colt's slide has a little bit of metal shrouding the underside of the extractor and how the Kimber's is just hanging in space? Both of them have the 45' chamfer. The Colt's breech face is fairly rough but the Kimber's is glass smooth. With the 200 SWC crimped to .465" in my crappy die the Kimber kicks the head up too much and creases the side of the case with the hood. With the Colt, the nose hits the hood, sometimes jamming, but I haven't actually shot either one with that much crimp. It happened that I opened the original Colt box and lo and behold there sit two brand-new COLT magazines with tapered, hybrid lips that I forgot I had. The lips and followers look just like the ones in Brad's last pics. SO I load up a few and freakin' a, they feed through the Colt like butter.

BUT, there's always a "but", the hybrid magazines are an absolute no-go in the Kimber. What's going on there is the case rim pops up in front of the extractor, every time. NOW I remember why I had to quit using the super-slick MecGar magazines in the Kimber and went to WC parallel-lips for shooting ball in IDPA. Even with Federal AM 230 gr. ball the hybrids let the cases jump in front of the extractor.

This has been informative but I have a headache.

 

[Pistolero]

Movement forward...... How is extractor tension on the Kimber?
What model and about when was it made?

Bill

 

[Ian]

Kimber is 2007-vintage, Tac Pro II with bushingless barrel. Extractor tension on both is unbelievable, I can barely move them when prying on them with the tip of a pocket screwdriver. I don't know how to quantify it.

Forgot to add, the Kimber is absolutely notorious for premature slide lock with any magazine and ball ammo due to the bullet nose tripping the slide-lock. This is one of the main reasons I had Tom make the 45-230L with the rebated nose. I know of at least half a dozen other Kimbers that had that problem, I think I'm the only one who didn't file or replace his slide release lever with an aftermarket one since the Kimber's is so proud on the inside where the follower is supposed to trip it. I used Lee 230 RN tumble-lube bullets in competition

 

[Pistolero]

OK, pull the extractor and reverse it and insert into slide. UNbend it a hair on a wood surface
that you don't mind marring. Then try to push it into place. It should be clean and lightly
oiled, a .22 LR cleaning brush will clean the tunnel if it is particularly cruddy. Then push
into place, should be 3-5 lb thumb push. If more, unbend more..... until it is right.
Polish breech face just a bit with 320 grit wet or dry, only needs to be reasonably smooth,
not any sort of a mirror finish, but smooth.
Round and polish the extractor bottom edge while you are at it. All these things mitigate
in the direction for what you have been seeing. Rim may be bouncing off of the extractor
rather than sliding under it.

Embarrassing for Kimber. My old Classic Custom was dead right out of the box.

Bill

 

[Ian]

Out of the box, I worked on the frame where the trigger stirrup rides along with the stirrup itself, sear, and sear spring for at least three long evenings before I finally got the horrid hitch and grit out of the trigger. I swore never again would I own an aluminum-framed, anodized 1911.

I'll calibrate my thumb and check it out, the extractor will be easier to polish if removed anyway, plus it probably needs a good cleaning.

 

[Pistolero]

My Colt SS ltwt Commander came with a nice trigger fit. I am a bit surprised at Kimber,
but my experience is limited to a single gun, a very early Classic Custom or Custom Classic,
can never remember which, all steel 5 inch gun which has done IPSC and some Swiss Pistol
target duty for years and been dead reliable. I put a 2 lb trigger on it about 15 yrs and
15-20K round ago and it is still crisp, absolutely safe 2 lbs today.

Making bad copies of good guns is not a good business model, I am surprised when I hear so often
about problem guns. Amazes me when it really isn't that hard to do it right, and they charge
enough that it should be right. Tuning is one thing, reworking everything is another.

I looked at the Kimber and Gold Cup, both slides have the little extension below the
extractor, look like your Colt. Not sure that is any sort of an issue, but it sure is a difference
near a critical location, a bit suspicious.
Checked my GC extractor tension as I put it back together, dirty, and it was more like 6-8
lbs, a bit high but clean it may be better and it works perfectly, so good enough.

Bill

 

[Ian]

I'm very suspecting of the "missing" ledge, too. Watching the thing feed with magazines of each style I believe that ledge is critical to getting the rim under the extractor when using tapered-lip magazines. With the tapered-lip magazine and SWC bullets, there is sort of a bind between breech face, case rim, and magazine lip when the breech face first makes contact with the rim. Continuing forward with the slide overcomes this bind, but the case pops out in front of the extractor.

 

[Pistolero]

That missing piece may be a guide to direct the rim, laterally, into the correct spot to slide
smoothly under the rim. Without it the rim could move laterally enough to hit the extractor
at a steep enough angle to bounce off rather than a very flat angle to slide under smoothly.

I'm wondering if this is a warranty issue? May be worth a call, IF you can get a qualified
expert on the phone to explain it. Maybe a good photo and an explanation of the issue
would get a useful response as a warranty issue.

Bill