Lesson learned

[Pistolero]

Yes, I have a number of original Bo-Mar sights, never a though of trouble with the, just
plain bullet proof. Can't see why there isn't somebody making a literal duplicate for
the market today.

Several of them have seen more than 50K rounds of either hot .38 Super or 180+
power factor .45 ACP loads without any issue, just work and keep on keeping on.

Trust advice from 35 Rem, he knows more about the 1911 than I do and I have been
shooting and smithing them since 1980.

Bill

 

[Rick]

Can't see why there isn't somebody making a literal duplicate for
the market today. Bill

That was supposed to be Champion but they missed the boat by miles. Don't know if they have corrected there problems since the first ones came out, from the example I had that would take a lot of correcting. I wouldn't even install it on the gun, just mailed it back.

 

[Brad]

If someone makes a good, a really really good, product for competition shooting there is always a market.
Make crap and it still finds a market, for a while.

People who demand the most from a product are usually willing to pay for the quality they demand.

 

[Pistolero]

Original Bo-Mars were expensive but you were certain it would hold zero and never
break. Whatever high price I paid for them has been long ago forgotten, yet they
still soldier on and warm my heart by being functional and permanently trouble-free.

I wonder what is on my Pointman 7? Very high quality 1911 with a Bo-Mar look alike
that has given no trouble, but probably only 2000 rds through the gun, a near virgin.

Bill

 

[Rick]

Exactly! And they are repeatable, changing a pre-determined number of clicks up or down and you knew what you would get. That was the big fault with the Champions, set up on a dial indicator one click up could be .001", the next click .005", the next click could be down .003". Impossible to shoot a long range match like that. Bo-mar is dearly missed.

 

[Brad]

Rick and his shooting are very demanding of sights. The constant up and down, left and right, required well made, and properly hardened parts.
My competition AR sights are the same way. When I went up 43 clicks to shoot 600 I needed to know it was always the same.

Good sights are expensive but cheap sights that don't work are even more expensive in the long run.

 

[Pistolero]

Yes, very important. When I shot High Power, the one thing I had to learn was that the
rear sigh clicks could be trusted exactly. I had the little book with come-ups and initially was
a bit skeptical of the whole idea of keeping the sight screwed down as the zero position and
coming up whatever you needed to get the range. Works like a charm with a decent match
grade sight, and in the end, this whole dialing and adjusting of sights for range and windage
and having confidence in it was my main "take home" from High Power. A grueling sport
in Kansas in July and August, to be sure. Well, that and the realization that a man with
a rifle and open sights at 500 or 600 yds is a serious danger if he knows what he is
doing. Once shot a 100-7X on a string at 500 yds off a sling (reduced target, 600 equiv, our range
just isn't big enough) and before I started I didn't grasp that ANYONE could do that
with an iron sighted AR, let alone ME.

We didn't drive the sights around in IPSC, but we did insist on absolutely holding what you
put on them and standing up to 100K rounds or more without "issues".

 

[smokeywolf]

Only time I ever had a failure to feed or go into battery on my 1917 manufactured 1911 is when I fed it a longer truncated cone that was seated out too far to make the turn into the chamber.

 

[Pistolero]

My guess is that this may have been with a parallel lip early release type magazine. This is by far
the most common mag type out there new today, probably 80% or so are that type.

This holds the back end of the cartridge down instead of letting it rise as the round feeds forward,
and increases the feeding angle of the cartridge, then suddenly releases the round to fly free. The
pure JB tapered lips keep the feeding angle lower by letting the round rise up progressively as it feeds
forward, and slides the rim under the extractor from below, not releasing the round from the magazine
until it is under control of the extractor, true controlled round feeding like a Mauser
rifle.

IMO, anyone that is at all serious about a 1911 and making your own ammo for it needs to have original
style, hybrid early release and parallel lip early release mags in stock and test with each type as a new
test to see what a particular cartridge will need, if you are feeding it other than 230 FMJ ball. The
function methods of the mags are significantly different and how the round behaves in transit is much
different, and short or long cartridges can need different mags to make it work.

The other issue with the pure military barrels is that the rear face of the barrel is pure 90
degrees on either side of the chamber, with only a narrow feed ramp in the middle. A SWC
that moves even slightly sideways in feeding will hit the square shoulder of the bullet on the
square shoulder of the chamber and jam. All production 1911s for at least a few decades
have had the feed ramps rolled up the sides to feed SWCs and short HPs far better, mostly
ending this issue. Old unmodified military 1911s need RN or TC designs unless you want to
throat the barrel, and that is increasingly frowned upon as these guns move from working
tools to collector items.

 

[Ian]

I'm learning a bunch here. Typically I run Chip McCormick 8-round magazines with the really short feed lips, which work fine with most stuff UNLESS I try to chamber a round slowly, then the cartridge usually pops out of the magazine and completely out of the pistol. Obviously releasing the case head too soon for my particular ammo/feed ramp/barrel situation. I looked around to see what I could find in a more CRF type magazine and am not finding much except for some old non-name mags I have already with fairly long feed lips that spread out toward the front.

This is a problem I'd like to fix, and I mostly shoot RN bullets approximating the Ball profile. The "feel" of the action cycle has been mentioned, and I can feel the "crunch" as the breech closes, like there's a small rock in there, I'm pretty sure it's the extractor being forced over the case rims because the cases aren't riding the breech face properly. Here is an interesting feed lip configuration I found, not sure if it will work well for a modern Kimber, what do do you guys think? http://www.midwayusa.com/product/66...-7-round-stainless-steel?cm_vc=ProductFinding

 

[Brad]

This is what I bought and have had no troubles with them at all. They feed the Lee 230 TC just the same as a HG 68 clone. I did add extra power magazine springs, purchased in a large pack they weren't that much money.

Ok Ian, here is something to play with. Remove the recoil spring from your pistol. Take a dummy round with your bullet of choice and slowly feed it from the magazine. By slowly pushing the slide forward you can see the process of feeding the round from magazine into the chamber, including when the round releases from the magazine and where the rim goes as it feed.

Seeing the round and how it is controlled is sort of amazing.

 

[Pistolero]

Do what Brad says. The early release parallel lip designs usually have the round in free flight for a portion of
the feed cycle, NEVER a good thing, IMO. Free flight forces the extractor to snap over the rim,
very hard on an extractor never intended to work that way except on a rare round dropped
into the chamber and slide closed on it. I never load this way, always load the chamber from
the mag, then top up the mag to avoid maltreating the extractor. Hybrid designs let the
round move up and many will slide under the extractor prior to release, a good thing.

The mag you linked to is almost certainly made by MetalForm. They got into the market making
mags for bullseye only (limited to 5 rds then) back in the late 70s. They had this cool three
dimensional folded stainless follower that was a 100% lock back design, and very stable, great
design. They were called "Laka" mags and I have a few old ones. They also had a removeable
floor plate, easier to clean. Apparently something changed in the mid-late 80s, rumor was that
Mr. Laka died, but Metalform started manufacturing mags under their own name. Now they make
a LOT of mags, and supply many companies. Good quality, generally have been hybrid designs,
"almost" controlled round feeding, but not quite under the extractor most of the time. Still, the
follower is a really good one. Could be GI lips on that, one but they are rare now.

I would get a few Checkmate original GI lips type mags. Rem35 says to get the extra power springs,
mine work so far with normal springs. My particular Ltwt Commander just runs like greased lightning,
either shooting or when cycled slow by hand. I never had a jam, but there was a definite hitch in the
feed cycle you could feel when you hand cycled it with the hybrid or early release parallel lip designs
that is absolutely 100% gone with original GI (John Browning) lip design mags.

The three that I bet my life on are, first - an OLD, VERY EARLY Colt mag with the milled floorplate pinned to
the body. Most folks have never seen one or even knew that this was JB's original floorplate design. It is also
nickel plated, I think factory, but maybe not. IME, nickel plated mags all run like they are coated with
owl snot, the slickest material known to science. This is in the gun and is just a perfect, slick and
durable mag. The two backups are from a group buy back in 1981 or so. We bought about 100 "Genuine
GI surplus overruns" for $3.00 each. These are absolutely unmarked, superb, extremely well made mags to exact
GI specs, and the bodies are the hardest I have ever run into. Some of them were used in IPSC competition
for decades without any mechanical failures of the mags, which are considered a consumable in IPSC.

All three are the original long, tapered GI, JB design lips.

All this said -- I recognize that the overwhelming majority of 1911s will feed most ammo
just fine from the parallel lip early release designs, so the 1911 design is pretty forgiving, -- except
when it isn't.

Bill

 

[smokeywolf]

Now Bill, I'm not inclined to argue your points on 1911 magazines, but on owl snot being the slickest... I've always been of the opinion that calf slobber was the slickest.

 

[Pistolero]

Well, you might be right. No personal testing on either, just going on the
word from 'experts'.

Bill

 

[Ian]

The slickest stuff known to science actually does come from an owl, but from the end opposite the one mentioned. I will submit that wet juniper bark is at least in the top five.

Bill and Brad, I have spent time in the past working several guns to try to understand the feeding process, and figured out the CRF thing quickly and that the magazines I had weren't working for that. Mec-Gar made some high-polish, nickel-plated ones that I used in IDPA competition, but they had a tendency to jam following a shoot-to-lock reload (too much time spend in the "floating'' phase.) I understand the problem better now, but am just not seeing much out there newly made that will allow my pistols to feed as intended.

 

[Brad]

Ian, here is some light reading on the subject.

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?26407-Magazine-Timing-(Looooonnnng)

Read what this guy says about magazines, everything I hear is that he really knows his stuff.

I'm at a point where I wouldn't buy a new magazine for mine that wasn't made by Checkmate. I own all hybrid lip magazines except the Colt magazine I got with the gun. They all feed well and haven't failed me yet. I do have the extra power springs.

I need to get 35 Remington to chime in, this is up his alley.

 

[Ian]

Thanks, Brad, I'll check it out.

 

[35remington]

One thing I know for sure is that at some point I can buy a magazine from anybody that will not work in somebody's 1911.

To a great degree all the magazine styles let the rim fly through space before it goes under the extractor. It is a good idea to shorten the distance it does so as a reliability aid.

My initial impression of the 1911 was very favorable as I shot Dad's GI Colt and semi pillaged National Guard ammo with his GI magazines and it never faulted. Later I shot in an armory myself and witnessed horrible old range beaters work like Swiss watches with same ammo and magazines. In between that time I tried every magazine out there as that was the trend and my opinion of 1911 reliability hit a new low. Some of that was my learning curve but some of that was my magazines.

All magazines have weaknesses their makers won't discuss. Other makes/styles are unjustly characterized. A Wilson rep assured me that tapered lip magazines are no good with anything but ball. Right you are??? there fella. Probably should refrain from making statements like that but there is no shortage of people willing to comment without knowing.

Look closely at some magazine designs and you realize some of the features are really a roll of the dice. Some thing was given up when something was gained,. Slick followers are oxymoronish, yet some think they are a benefit. The Devel follower is an abortion and there's no kind way to say it. And so on.

 

[35remington]

And if there's anything SWC magazines are poorer to work with, it's ball. Would it not make sense that deviating from that original GI configuration is not helpful? Just so it is clear all the huzzahs are not going one way, I've had malfunctioning tapered lip magazines too. Not done correctly, they may misfeed. Sometimes the reasons why are a little elusive but you can narrow most issues down as to true causes.

 

[Ian]

I have a couple of no-name magazines in my junk drawer that happen to have the long, tapered feed lips. I remember why I quit trying to use them long ago: They are made out of recycled Yugos or something and the metal is so soft that the feed lips won't hold their shape. When they spread too much, they're as bad or worse than the short-lip magazines. Spread, long-lip magazines will pop out bullet-up and hang in the port, the short-lip magazines will kick the primer end up and jam in the port if the case head misses its swipe at getting under the extractor claw.