Let’s talk about how accurate a gun is…

[Bret4207]

I respectfully DISAGREE!

Not all firearms are heavy barreled bench guns.

I have a few VERY LIGHT bolt rifles built for hunting. They will never have a need for 5 consecutive shots!!! With them, If I can make consistent acceptable ONE to THREE shot groups to my POA, Im elated and consider them useful accurate.
Remember these are hunting rifles and with these rifles, I want a COLD bore shot dead on my POA every time. I don't care much for what the 5th shots impact is, cause I simply will never send it.

By 3 shots, the light barrel in some calibers, can be quite warm. Warmer then Im comfortable continuing shooting.

"Your in the know" we all know this. But I read of too many, who are know use this "5 shots or its useless" as a put down, to shooters. Many times because they read of knowledgeable fellows, such as your self, making such blanket statement's.

CW

Absolutely agree in light barrels and cold bores. It takes a little time, but 5 or 10 shot groups are still preferable to me. Throw in Mannlicher socked rifles too!

 

[Bret4207]

Just for conversations sake- What 5 shots tells you that 3 doesn't and what 10 tells you 5 doesn't is how the rifle reacts s it warms, as it settles in the stock and as range variations (sun light /shadow/etc) come into play. And lets face it- a lot of people like to stop with a 3 shot group where they're all touching rather than a 5 shot group with 2 fliers or a 10 shot group thats way more like 2.75" instead of 1.25. Seen it a buncha times. More shots mean more opportunity for error from gun and shooter. I don't have a problem with that, some people do. Those are the people you never see shoot beyond 5 yards with a handgun.

 

[Snakeoil]

I think I've told this story before, but I just can't help myself.

First off, given the average age here, you can probably tell that story once a week and everyone will think that they are reading it for the first time.

I can sympathize with your friend. But he broke the old rule of measure twice, pour once (well okay, a variation of the rule). I get the feeling that the guy has more energy than anything else and his general method of operation is Ready, Fire, Aim. I know guys like that. Hell, I've been in that mode myself once or twice. But all is not lost.

Not sure how deep the slab is, but it is possible to saw the slab and then move it with a front-end loader or small crane to where it should be. I will admit that it not being square to the berm would probably drive me nuts, too. Put a cut-off wheel on a skill saw and score it so it will break where you want it too and then move the sucker. Although, you might find you run amuck with the trap walks.

 

[Snakeoil]

Do you toss out the outliers of all the groups? Depends. If i know I pulled the shot, yup.

Yeah, I follow the same methodology. But I try to eliminate flyers by using front and rear bags. The rifle is pretty much rock steady. My focus is cheek pressure and shoulder contact so that the rifle recoils the same every time. If you take the time to do it damn near perfectly in near perfect conditions, it will show you what the rifle is capable of. Then when you are shooting for score, every errant shot placement will be telling you something. You might not know what, but if you figure it out, you just got a little smarter.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't doubt that it had a better lock time than the 40X, but I really doubt that Remington would discontinue it for that reason. It was introduced as a budget priced rifle to compete with other budget priced rifles. My guess is it cost too much to manufacture and the ROI was just not there. And being an entry level rifle, might not have ever met sale expectation.

A feature of the 788, which I was not aware of until I did a little research (I own one in .22-250) is that the single stack magazine resulted in less material being removed from the receiver between the loading port and the feed port. Hence, the action was more rigid and rigidity normally translates into better accuracy. Contributing to that rigidity was the rear locking lugs, meaning no need to machine locking lug raceways into the forward part of the action. Supposedly, the 788 action is more rigid than any other magazine fed bolt action.

I’m no expert on the 788 but the rifle has almost a cult like following.

I suspect everything you mention here is spot on.

The economy rifle was cutting into the sales of the high-grade models. Now that’s great if the economy model has a large profit margin but I suspect you hit the nail on the head that the manufacturing costs were higher (or more likely became higher during the production run) and that margin got squeezed.

I think sales expectations were not inflated but competition might have changed that equation. Those were the days of Savage 110’s making inroads in the market, Howa was doing better than expected, the early SAKO models were starting to take hold in the U.S. market – there was a lot of competition.

I also totally agree that the design was very rigid and that undoubtedly had a positive effect.

 

[fiver]

that and 700's just suck.

 

[Snakeoil]

or more likely became higher during the production run

Yeah, after posting I was in the car and was thinking the same thing. The design was probably right on the money for costs/profit when it came out, but close to 20 years later, the costs were eating away if not devouring the profits.

And while on the subject of bolts with rear locking lugs, I was shooting my 541S .22 today and that is another rifle from Remington that will shame many purposely build target rifles.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Yeah, after posting I was in the car and was thinking the same thing. The design was probably right on the money for costs/profit when it came out, but close to 20 years later, the costs were eating away if not devouring the profits.

And while on the subject of bolts with rear locking lugs, I was shooting my 541S .22 today and that is another rifle from Remington that will shame many purposely build target rifles.

The manufacturing costs of the 788 undoubtedly went up between the design phase, the early manufacturing phase, and the end of manufacturing. No shocker there, lots of projects suffer similar fates.

The concept was solid. I can’t blame the design.

And as for the 541 – I have a 541T that is an amazingly accurate rifle. Not the same league as a center fire, high power rifle but the machining and engineering is impressive

 

[oscarflytyer]

my perspective/context. A 150-160 yo BP rifle - WITH HISTORY!; and/or, a 100+ yo revolver - that will shoot, let alone (rifle) group 6-10" at 100 yds, or pistol groups at <3" at 10 yds - THEY are ALL way too fun to shoot!