Lyman 429360
- Thread starter Monochrome
- Start date
Now that makes sense. I also noted the area in front of the driving band on a 431 has a slight slope to the bottom of the ogive. The 360 doesn’t as I recall. This could also break up the turbulence and make it more stable.
Still like to see a picture of the airflow around a 421 and a 360. Take a lot of equipment we don’t have assess to./beagle
Still like to see a picture of the airflow around a 421 and a 360. Take a lot of equipment we don’t have assess to./beagle
Maybe that’s what I was remembering. As I recall, those are rifle bullets.
As I recall from 6 months spent at the Hughes Plant in California in the late 60s, even then the engineers had a computer program they could put an image of a tail rotor blade on a computer and hit it with simulated airflow and see the reaction. Now, that program is probably readily available and we need one and a 12 year old to show us how to use it. Also at Aberdeen Probing Ground, the HP White lab was testing 20mm and 30mm projectiles. In fact Elmer Keith sent samples of his .44 Ammunition there for testing. Bet they ran the 429421 through this program. This is what is needed on many of our bullet designs. Show us what works and what doesn’t instead of stumbling around in the dark.
Ah! I’m just dreaming./beagle
As I recall from 6 months spent at the Hughes Plant in California in the late 60s, even then the engineers had a computer program they could put an image of a tail rotor blade on a computer and hit it with simulated airflow and see the reaction. Now, that program is probably readily available and we need one and a 12 year old to show us how to use it. Also at Aberdeen Probing Ground, the HP White lab was testing 20mm and 30mm projectiles. In fact Elmer Keith sent samples of his .44 Ammunition there for testing. Bet they ran the 429421 through this program. This is what is needed on many of our bullet designs. Show us what works and what doesn’t instead of stumbling around in the dark.
Ah! I’m just dreaming./beagle
I remember reading of tests like that. Seems to me that would be slow, expensive, and labor intensive. It would tell you what the bullet had done and when but velocity and what was happening to the bullet would be missing.
Guess we need to look at ballistic programs. May be beyond our means and in my case intelligence capabilities but I’d like to know. Scan a bullet profile in which is doable. Then hit it with known velocity frontal speed and a known envelope for a loads velocity and look at air flow around the bullet in slow time. That would give you everything. Sonic bump, sonic time and subsonic bump. Tell you if the bullet had gone to sleep or was fluctuating.
I’d love run the 429360. The 357446 and the 313631 though and see what’s wrong with the designs. Bet we’re not too far off in our reckoning./beagle
Guess we need to look at ballistic programs. May be beyond our means and in my case intelligence capabilities but I’d like to know. Scan a bullet profile in which is doable. Then hit it with known velocity frontal speed and a known envelope for a loads velocity and look at air flow around the bullet in slow time. That would give you everything. Sonic bump, sonic time and subsonic bump. Tell you if the bullet had gone to sleep or was fluctuating.
I’d love run the 429360. The 357446 and the 313631 though and see what’s wrong with the designs. Bet we’re not too far off in our reckoning./beagle
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Dr. Franklin Mann made a fortune as a MD in Boston. His book, The Bullets Flight, details the results of those experiments.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
It is not easy reading. However, it is like a college lab book, data and data, not meant to be entertainment.
L Ross
Well-Known Member
I believe he made his big money designing and manufacturing a bone cutter for making chicken meal. Wasn't there bicycles in the mix also?
But guys, remember the Art in Art & Science. When we share our experiences, our collective knowledge gained by stumbling around in the dark, we are a form of a computer. A member asked about the 360 and was quickly informed it is a flawed design. Empirical evidence gathered by the workers in the hive.
Whether we describe those experiences with scientific data or spit a stream of tobacco juice in the dirt and declare it junk.
Then imagine our dismay if someone did a computer based aerodynamic analysis and declared one of two cast bullet designs were "perfect" for every application. Then we tried those and indeed they are the ne plus ultra of all designs and demand for those dried up the supply of "lesser" moulds. What fun would that be?
I miss the old old Lyman books where various amateur casters and shooters sent in comments that were published. The
expert" commentaries of H.Guy Loverin, Thompson, Keith, and names less well known today. Artists and experimenters everyone.
Today we have a more fleeting digital format. One where "old posts" get lost in the ether rather than becoming treasured dog eared tomes. But we still have our experimenter mentors. Fiver, Waco, Ian, Beagle, Ben, on and on and on. Artists and scientists all. Perhaps we should all be given honorary degrees. I'll choose one in BS though my heart lives in the BA camp. Long live B.S.!
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RBHarter
West Central AR
Oh I'm pretty sure there are plenty worthy of a PhD in BS .
I checked into casting and the accompanying arts just in time for a huge surge of "because 'they' said it couldn't be done , so we're doing to prove 'them' wrong" . It was a time where every step was polished and handed to anyone interested. Those folks would build on that step polish it up and do the same ....... Then PC and HyTek happened .
Idiot savants like myself use the Cliff Notes version of the 8,000 pages of success and building throw out the redundant boring parts , and try to relate it all in the abridged Cliff Notes version.
I'm sure that I write stuff that looks like" ya just poke the sparky thing in that hole you made poking that used up sparky thing out , scoop in some of the gas flake/rods , and poke in a gob of greasy waxed lead a little bigger than the biggest part of the splined hole in the bang stick. That's all there is to it ." I mean it's not wrong , kind of over simplified, maybe by several exponents ...... Some times I want to slap somebody and go "ok if the air forces it's way in through the carburetor and isn't sucked in where does the air forcing it's way in go and why doesn't the carburetor have empty float bowls when the engine is stopped with the valves in 2 cylinders open in over lap ?" That of course goes with BHN discussions and why the 45 cal revolver is fine with 45 ACP bullets in and why the .454 45 Colts dimensions are lies with jackets in anything built since like 1935 ......... Hollow base bullets........
Umm sorry the train is in the swamp now .....
I checked into casting and the accompanying arts just in time for a huge surge of "because 'they' said it couldn't be done , so we're doing to prove 'them' wrong" . It was a time where every step was polished and handed to anyone interested. Those folks would build on that step polish it up and do the same ....... Then PC and HyTek happened .
Idiot savants like myself use the Cliff Notes version of the 8,000 pages of success and building throw out the redundant boring parts , and try to relate it all in the abridged Cliff Notes version.
I'm sure that I write stuff that looks like" ya just poke the sparky thing in that hole you made poking that used up sparky thing out , scoop in some of the gas flake/rods , and poke in a gob of greasy waxed lead a little bigger than the biggest part of the splined hole in the bang stick. That's all there is to it ." I mean it's not wrong , kind of over simplified, maybe by several exponents ...... Some times I want to slap somebody and go "ok if the air forces it's way in through the carburetor and isn't sucked in where does the air forcing it's way in go and why doesn't the carburetor have empty float bowls when the engine is stopped with the valves in 2 cylinders open in over lap ?" That of course goes with BHN discussions and why the 45 cal revolver is fine with 45 ACP bullets in and why the .454 45 Colts dimensions are lies with jackets in anything built since like 1935 ......... Hollow base bullets........
Umm sorry the train is in the swamp now .....
Funny you mentioned Mann’s book. Was recently given a copy. Opened it last night. Too deep for me. He was the one that used paper targets but his stuff is all rifle inclined. We’ll have look elsewhere.
HP White lab has closed. No relief there. I’m sure their archives reside on disk at BRL (Ballistics Research Lab) at Aberdeen Proving Ground.
Take an act of Congress to get anything out of there.
No, there is a bored ballistician somewhere with the talent and equipment we need. Just keep following the holy grail./beagle
HP White lab has closed. No relief there. I’m sure their archives reside on disk at BRL (Ballistics Research Lab) at Aberdeen Proving Ground.
Take an act of Congress to get anything out of there.
No, there is a bored ballistician somewhere with the talent and equipment we need. Just keep following the holy grail./beagle
