Lyman 450 Issue

[Bazoo]

I have a Lyman 450 that is offering a little trouble.

When sizing a lee 432-265-RF that has a gas check, it sizes crooked. I seat the check with the gas check seating accessory, then I run the bullet into the die, and it is always sized slightly more on one size of the nose, you can see the sizing line.

If I size a bullet without the gas check, the issue goes away. So It appears the issue is not there with plain based bullets.

If I seat the gas checks and size in a push through die first, then run the bullet into the same size die in my 450, the issue goes away. That's what i've been doing.

It takes a pretty good amount of force to size them, and that's the only difference I can see.

So... does anyone have any advice for me? Ways to tune it? Just live with it like I've been doing? Will switching to a RCBS lubesizer do the same thing? Which model? LAM or LAM II?

Thanks all.

 

[shuz]

I suspect that the top punch is not in alignment with your sizing die on your 450. When you size with a gas check installed, it becomes noticeable in the end product. When you size without the gas check , there is enough slop to allow the misalignment to go unnoticed and you get a " good" product.

 

[Bazoo]

I first thought that too. I tried leaving the top punch lock screw loose, as well as using a flat top punch, with the same results. It appears that there is enough slop in the ram that it would self center a pretty good amount, but that slop can be the cause of the issue if I pull the lever to the side while sizing. So when I pull the lever straight , it is moving the ram both down and slightly forward, that in turn kicks the bottom of the ram rearward, as best I can tell. It doesn't seem to do this enough when the sizing operation isn't very difficult.

I dont think the ram is off center... but that there is just so much play in the ram that it is causing an issue. I am about ready to throw in the towel for an RCBS machine, but i've heard conflicting reports on that too.

The 31141 bullets I make don't show the issue, and they shoot well enough on papar. Out of my winchester 94, they get less than 2" at 75 yards. Which is really only as good as I can see to shoot the gun with the irons.

With the blackhawk, I get 3"-4" groups at 20 yards with the junk bullets. But I have gotten 1" groups with it with good bullets, when I'm having a good hand and eye day.

 

[Missionary]

Be sure the bullet base is starting square into the sizer.
Does the top punch "fit" the nose ?
What is the diameter before sizing and the diameter after ?
What mix did you cast these slugs with ?
Are they water dropped ?

 

[Bazoo]

I don't know what to look for to see if the base is starting square into the sizer other than trying to center it in the top of the die opening.

Yes the top punch fits the nose. Originally, with the 432-265-RF, I was using a flat top punch and I notice this issue. I thought it likely was that, so I chased down a couple top punches that fit it, and RCBS 649 being the one that ended up fitting the best. That ruled the top punch fitment out.

Bullets have been cast from 2 alloys, wheel weights with a pinch of tin, and 50/50 wheelweights/pure with a pinch of tin. All are air cooled. Some where sized within a few days of casting and some I waited a few months before I got to them.

The diameter before sizing is .4318 or so, best I recall. It just shy of .432 measured with my mic. I've tried sizing to .431 and .430 with the same results. I've also tried using both hornady's gas checks and sages gas checks.

 

[Dusty Bannister]

To check for top punch mis alignment, lube size a few as you normally do, then rotate the top punch 180 degrees and observe any change on the side of the bullets being sized.

If you are forcing a gas check on a base that still has a nub, that could tilt the check before it is crimped in place. I have seen gas checks whose skirts were not square as if the punch was not correctly positioned to form the sides of the check evenly.

Are the check openings large enough to allow being placed on the gas check shank before being placed in the lube sizer? If not, and you are putting the check in the press and then forcing the cast bullet into the gas check, things can easily deform and you might be seeing that result. If the checks will not slip on the gas check shank, expand the skirt with a small socket or taper punch.

 

[JonB]

The Lyman 450 cam/linkage is a poor design. Ian explains it well, in post 12.
.
This thread also has a link to Keith's fix...and also several posts by Ian fixing one.
.

Lyman 450 rebuild

Here is a link to a project I did back in 2008. Thanks to JonB for finding it. http://web.archive.org/web/20120525005328/http://www.usi.edu/science/engineering/Lyman450/Lyman450LuberRebuild.htm

www.artfulbullet.com

 

[Ian]

So when I pull the lever straight , it is moving the ram both down and slightly forward, that in turn kicks the bottom of the ram rearward, as best I can tell. It doesn't seem to do this enough when the sizing operation isn't very difficult.

Probably a simple case of the excess force required to fully crimp/size the gas check forcing the built-in slop and flex of the machine to rear its ugly head. The Lyman 450/4500 is pretty much a garbage design made out of even more garbage parts assembled by the cheapest, most unskilled labor Lyman could find. Best thing you can do is install gas checks with the gas check seater attachment and a FLAT top punch that you already mentioned trying so the bullet nose can sort of float to center on it, use the Lee push through for the heavy sizing work, and lube in the 450. When you get sick of that buy a Star or a Lyman 45, just know that the Star isn't the best at seating/crimping gas check fully down on the bases of big bullets and the 45 has a weak handle and linkage making more than about .002" sizing in one go impossible without breakage.

If you're interested in the one I sorta fixed in the thread that Jon linked, PM me because I don't use it and would sell. No warranty on the Delrin ram bushing but it ought to last a good while with proper lubrication.

 

[Bret4207]

Agree with Ians suggestion on the Lee push through sizer and then lube in the Lyman. You can easily lap the dies to the same as the Lyman sizer with abrasive paper on a steel rod rolled across your thigh. Or, I think a couple guys here have a side business of opening dies to what you want or maybe making you a custom die. The prices, IIRC, aren't bad at all. Maybe someone will see this a give you the handle of the guys doing this work.