RCBS Cowboy Dies

[waco]

I have been using my brothers 30-30 dies for about six years now. I figure it’s time to return them and buy my own. I just ordered a set of the RCBS cowboy dies. Do any of you have any experience with these dies? Good, bad, or indifferent?

 

[462]

My only experience, with them, has been with their .357/.38 dies I use for the .357 Magnum. While the expander and seater dies work as designed, I can't say the same for the sizer die. I've four sizer dies, the RCBS cowboy, a Lyman, a Lee, and a Pacific steel. Of the three the Lee sizes a case the least and the RCBS the most. I think the numbers are .356" for the Lee and .353" for the RCBS, so I use the Lee. (Maybe, I should contact RCBS and have them perform some die magic.)

While the concept has some merit, the end product is lacking, especially if one considers the price. I've been contemplating a new set of .44 Special dies, but can't justify gambling on a set of RCBS cowboys. And when I look at a loaded round, I can't fault the performance of my eclectic set of three different brands.

Don't mean to discourage you, but my set's performance didn't live up to the advertizing.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I have a few sets and basically there a more cast bullet friendly die set.

 

[Ian]

Meh, I've looked at the dimensions and all they are is an expensive set of standard dies with a very slightly larger expanding spud and some brass accoutrements. Having run the gamut of dies for .30-30 using cast bullets, I have found no die better suited dimensionally than the one made by Lee. I have two, one recent and one over 30 years old and they are dimensionally identical except for me enlarging the neck of the older one slightly. If you powder coat and size .310" or smaller, no neck enlargement is necessary. IIRC the Lee die's neck as from the factory was about five thousandths larger than the RCBS and as a result the necks were not bulged off-center when expanded to .308" ID. An RCBS cast bullet expander/belling spud of the same diameter of as the bullet seems to be about perfect for cast unless you dead-soft anneal your brass, then go .002" smaller than the bullet with your spud.

I'm also a big fan of the Lee collet neck sizing die for my single-shot .30-30 rifles.

 

[RicinYakima]

I have two sets. The first was the beginning of production 25/20 dies. The sizing die only has a primer punch and originally sized the case necks so small the expander plug would not even enter the case, just mashed it down. Returned with three fired cases they fixed it and wrote me a nice note that they were changing the spec's for all new die sets.

Second was a 44 Russian set that worked well and had a .430" expander than never required any modification for .431 bullets.

Both sets are 3 dies and make very good ammo.

 

[Jeff H]

I'm using LEE dies for my 30/30 as well, having returned my dad's 30/30 dies after several years of having them on loan. His were old RCBS dies and they were fine, but I like the features of LEE dies, especially the Collet Neck-Sizer for cast. I say this having cut my teeth on Lyman, RCBS, Redding, BAIR, etc. I'm almost fuly converted over to LEE now, over time.

To replace the borrowed RCBS 30/30 dies, I got LEE dies, with the FLR, Seater and Collet Neck-Sizer, whatever set that is. I have used these exclusively for cast in single-shot, break-open rifles (H&R and Contender) and the have been the berries. I especially like the Collet Neck Sizer, as I can adjust the amount of neck tension, within a narrow window. I chose this set because it's what I'd already switched over to for other cartridges, using jacketed some years ago.

I also have a LEE Collet-Type crimp die for the 30/30, but haven't needed to crimp, so I can't report on that for the 30/30, but I do like it for the 357 Mag - also all cast.

 

[Spindrift]

I'm actually quite happy with the Lee collet neck- sizer in my 30/30 levergun as well. It's not supposed to work, but with relatively mild cast loads, I can get maybe 5-7 cycles of neck-sizing before I feel the need for a FL sizing. It's a good solution for making range fodder.

 

[Jeff H]

I'm actually quite happy with the Lee collet neck- sizer in my 30/30 levergun as well. It's not supposed to work, but with relatively mild cast loads, I can get maybe 5-7 cycles of neck-sizing before I feel the need for a FL sizing. It's a good solution for making range fodder.

Same for the break-opens - "not supposed to work."

It not only works, but it works quite admirably.

I do the same for the 222 Remington in a CZ 527, but I've neck-sized for bolt-actions for as long as I can remember.

 

[L Ross]

My .25-20 RCBS Cowboy dies sized my brass so small my .251" plug gauge would not go into the neck. Now my .25-20 brass can charitably be called vintage, i.e. W.R.A., REM-UMC, and Peters. I cannot risk losing any! I emailed RCBS and mildly bitched chastising them for stating the Cowboy dies were optimized for lead bullets. I received a phone call, from a live person, not only a person but a machinist who told me to keep my too tight die for jacketed and made a new full length sizer die to my specifications. I wanted .257" finished I.D. optimized for .259" bullets. No problem says he, and no charge! He told me he'd have the heat treat Dept. make my custom die a slightly different color so I could tell them apart at a glance.

Service like that is priceless. I say go for it and if you're not happy, they will make you happy.

 

[richhodg66]

Switching from a set of standard RCBS dies to Cowboy dies cut the groups from my .38-55 in half without doing anything else. It was that dramatic. I've since picked up sets in .30-30 and .32 Special. Haven't seen that dramatic a difference in those, but for things I shoot exclusively cast in (most things) I plan to eventually have a set in every caliber they make them in that I shoot.

 

[358156 hp]

I have a set of .357 Cowboy dies. I bought it on sale for a silly low price of like $25.00 + shipping long ago from Primary Arms. The sizing die is not as tight as my Hornady carbide, and titanium nitride Hornadys, and my case mouth cracking issues have abated somewhat. I also have two sets of old Pacific Durachrome .357 dies that I bought for the tapered steel sizing dies, plus I wanted to experiment with different crimp designs, and I still think that the old die designs were better at some things than the new mass-produced "stuff". So yes, I do have at least six sets of 357 mag dies so I can mix and match them to get what I think I want at the time.

I'd like to get a set of Cowboys for the 44 Redhawk some day as well.

 

[Jeff H]

Switching from a set of standard RCBS dies to Cowboy dies cut the groups from my .38-55 in half without doing anything else. It was that dramatic. I've since picked up sets in .30-30 and .32 Special. Haven't seen that dramatic a difference in those, but for things I shoot exclusively cast in (most things) I plan to eventually have a set in every caliber they make them in that I shoot.

What do you think it was about them that made such a dramatic difference? I've followed whatever I could find and read about the cowboy dies, wondering if I should try them in the 357 and 44 Special. Every set of carbide dies I've ever owned sized brass down way more than necessary, but the LEE dies were the least offensive. If there's one which isn't so radical, I'd be open to trying them.

 

[richhodg66]

The expander. When I looked at the regular dies, the expander ball is clearly for .375 jacketed bullets. My rifle likes a fat bullet, at least .379 and it'll take bigger no problem. I am convinced those cases were sized to the point where they were sizing the bullets to be under sized for the rifle.

You could probably acomplish the same thing by getting an appropriate Lyman M Die. I have loaded .30-30 and .32 Special with them and didn't see a real big difference, but in the case of that one rifle, it made a big difference.

 

[Ian]

The expander. When I looked at the regular dies, the expander ball is clearly for .375 jacketed bullets. My rifle likes a fat bullet, at least .379 and it'll take bigger no problem. I am convinced those cases were sized to the point where they were sizing the bullets to be under sized for the rifle.

You could probably acomplish the same thing by getting an appropriate Lyman M Die. I have loaded .30-30 and .32 Special with them and didn't see a real big difference, but in the case of that one rifle, it made a big difference.

I was going to ask what Jeff did, thanks for explaining.

I'm of the opinion that when sizing brass, the less the better. One of the things often missed by people trying to shoot cast bullets fast in more modern rifle cartridges is that there is a very generous chamber neck dimension compared to cartridge dimension, the chamber neck is tapered to boot, and sizing die dimensions are made by lawyers and not handloaders. The ID of most commercial .308 Winchester case necks comes out about .303-4" after being run through just about anyone's FL sizing die. Then we want to stuff a cast bullet in there and have to expand the neck back up to something like a .308-.309" ID so it doesn't smush our bullets. The rub is that when you blow that neck up that much with an expanding mandrel without supporting the case body in-line with it, the neck will stretch off center several thousandths because necks are NEVER equal thickness or equal hardness exactly all the way around and will "fade" toward the path of least resistance when drawn over the expander. Off-center ammunition equals larger groups with any projectile type but particularly so with cast bullets of larger than nominal diameter and lack of a sturdy jacket to control non-concentric deformation of the bullet as it is fired through the rifle's throat.

Using standard, off the shelf dies and cast bullet expanding spuds is a recipe for short case life and poor groups with cast bullets. Needing and having the ability to resize a case and neck to the exact dimensions I want for cast bullets without going through the excessive sizing step first is why I'm such a fan of the RCBS or similar full-length dies having selectable neck bushings. I go about a thousandth under final and bring the cases back to desired neck ID with an expander made just for the purpose to ensure dimensional uniformity and find that this process maintains neck/body concentricity very well.

If you want a carbide revolver case die that doesn't overwork the brass, pull out your checkbook and invest in the Redding dual-ring carbide sizing dies.

 

[richhodg66]

While I haven't taken measurements to prove it, I became convinced that the Lee carbide .45 Colt dies I used for years were oversizing the brass, so I went back to an old steel RCBS set I have. I also happen to like the old set up where the sizer only sized and the depriming stem also expands the case mouth. I have to lube cases, but no biggie, I usually lube even with carbide. I'm not the best pistol shooter and haven't actually put one on a bench in years, I shoot them one handed, off hand always, but it seems like my ammo is more accurate this way. One day I'll do some real checking and test shooting to see.

Generally, I agree comepletely, the least sizing one can get away with the better.

 

[Ian]

I also used Lee carbide .45 Colt dies for years and years, but with some of my guns having extremely generous chambers and some not, the brass had to all be FL sized and the carbide ring was very much too small for the application, causing extreme wasp-waisting of the brass, short case life, and not so great groups. Old RCBS steel dies and good case lube, or more recently the Redding dual dies with the neck ring enlarged with diamond tooling in a tool post grinder on the lathe has been my solution.

 

[Jeff H]

The collet neck sizer dies have an advantage in not squeezing the snot out of necks of bottleneck cases and then drawing a big spud/button back through. For the 30/30 and 222, my sized bullets will slip into the case necks, but fall through if handled, so the collet is squeezing the neck very little. Seems to be doing the trick, so it appears the cowboy dies wouldn't be an improvement on those for me.

My current sets of carbide 357 and 44 dies aren't nearly as bad as carbide dies I've used in the past, but I'll keep an eye on this. Less working the brass means longer case life.

 

[462]

I'm a fan of the Lee collet neck sizing die, and use/used them for all my bottle neck cartridges. Adjusting them for .0015" neck tension has worked very well, for me.

 

[L Ross]

Hey Ian, I was going to mention the Gold Medal X dies myself, really like being able to tune my neck diameter. Now hurry up and invent and patent, a screw-in carbide sizing ring for handgun ammo where the buyer could purchase a die body and insert the appropriate carbide sizing ring for his or her needs at the entrance to the die and get rid of those wasp waisted cartridges and still not have to lube and de-lube. Ooooh, wait, maybe one die body could suffice for .380, 9 m/m, .38's, .357 and so on, another for .44's and 45's.

If Ian ignores me, Hey Lee, wanna make another bazillion dollars?

 

[Bret4207]

I was going to ask what Jeff did, thanks for explaining.

I'm of the opinion that when sizing brass, the less the better. One of the things often missed by people trying to shoot cast bullets fast in more modern rifle cartridges is that there is a very generous chamber neck dimension compared to cartridge dimension, the chamber neck is tapered to boot, and sizing die dimensions are made by lawyers and not handloaders. The ID of most commercial .308 Winchester case necks comes out about .303-4" after being run through just about anyone's FL sizing die. Then we want to stuff a cast bullet in there and have to expand the neck back up to something like a .308-.309" ID so it doesn't smush our bullets. The rub is that when you blow that neck up that much with an expanding mandrel without supporting the case body in-line with it, the neck will stretch off center several thousandths because necks are NEVER equal thickness or equal hardness exactly all the way around and will "fade" toward the path of least resistance when drawn over the expander. Off-center ammunition equals larger groups with any projectile type but particularly so with cast bullets of larger than nominal diameter and lack of a sturdy jacket to control non-concentric deformation of the bullet as it is fired through the rifle's throat.

Using standard, off the shelf dies and cast bullet expanding spuds is a recipe for short case life and poor groups with cast bullets. Needing and having the ability to resize a case and neck to the exact dimensions I want for cast bullets without going through the excessive sizing step first is why I'm such a fan of the RCBS or similar full-length dies having selectable neck bushings. I go about a thousandth under final and bring the cases back to desired neck ID with an expander made just for the purpose to ensure dimensional uniformity and find that this process maintains neck/body concentricity very well.

If you want a carbide revolver case die that doesn't overwork the brass, pull out your checkbook and invest in the Redding dual-ring carbide sizing dies.

That right there is a my nominee for this months "Post of Fame!" or whatever you wish to call it. More information in there, and stated more clearly, than in any post I've seen in some time. Should be required reading. Well done Ian!