Savage 99 restification project

[Pistolero]

The first time a saw a Turnbull gun, it was a 92 Win. It was clearly brand spanking new, so I looked
at who was making these gorgeous new '92s. The markings were old Win.....impossible. I looked some
more, no, this is a NEW rifle.....At this point I looked up at the bespectacled gentleman behind the gun show
table and said "What is it"?, of course he said, "It's a Winchester '92." I waved my hand and said, "Yeah, obviously,
but new production or what? The markings are old Win markings, but the gun is NEW."

He smiled, straightened up a bit and said, "I restored it."........long pause. Finally all I could think to say in
my overwhelmed condition was, "You already know this, of course, but it is AMAZING!" He beamed and
thanked me. I had to look around and get his card..... Trumbull Restorations. I had never heard of him before
that day.

Until you see a Turnbull gun in person, it is very difficult to understand how truly good they really are.

Looks like you will have something nibbling at that class, hard to tell for sure, but looks like it from the pix.

Bill

 

[freebullet]

That is spectacular work, Ian!

 

[Ian]

My work is no Turnbull work. In the right light there are still a few scratches in the base metal that I didn't get out and didn't see before bluing it, but it looks a lot better than it did and has much sharper, cleaner edges where it's supposed to. My next one will be better now that I figured out to take the metal all the way to 600-grit so the deeper scratches that got missed are visible, THEN go back and scuff it to 400 so it will take the rust blue. Over all I'm pleased with it, but it isn't perfect.

Having a shop full of highly skilled, experienced workers with the proper equipment at their disposal vs. a country boy with some old files, sandpaper, and some wood blocks and not much experience is hard to compare.

 

[freebullet]

To modest. Some really smooth looking rust blue to my eye. See a lot of at home jobs looking super gritty.

 

[Brad]

For a rank amateur you are doing some damn fine work. I am impressed.

 

[Ian]

It is super-smooth, and ink black, no graphite sheen and no graininess. Exactly what I was going for because that's what the original ones looked like, and I really like it, I just need more experience with metal prep.

I did a good bit of experimenting with rust bluing and I'll say that if you don't like the graphite sheen and bead-blasted look, don't use Pilkington's, and don't stop at 320 like everyone says to. In fact, don't use any of the slow rust bluing formulas.....use Mark Lee's express blue #1, and put it on so thin that it cannot run. A finish sanded out to 400-grit and carded with 4-0 will be like a mirror when done with just a few coats. It does its thing and dries in about half a second if you warm the metal properly, then you go over the metal two more times and boil it for a couple of minutes. I carded under warm running water with degreased 4-0 steel wool, getting the crannies with a super-soft, miniature carding brush and making sure to get an even sheen on all of it each carding. The whole process of doing seven coats took me under four hours, and that counts going out to the garage to blow it dry after each carding/rinsing and re-heating it with a torch. The process can actually be continuous except for the brief boilings if you set it up right.

The lever finish is going to be a whole 'nuther kettle of fish, and is giving me quite a fit right now. It may just get re-case colored and left alone with all its rust pits.

 

[gman]

Your doing a fine job Ian. Having blued guns when I worked for my gunsmith I know the metal prep that goes with it. Never did the type of rust bluing you did with this 99 but you obviously did a lot of prep and it shows.

 

[Ian]

Thank you all for the kind words and encouragement, sharing this project with people who can appreciate what I'm trying to do makes it even more rewarding.

BTW, I forgot to mention that the receiver finish almost exactly matches the gloss anodized rear sight that Barn gave me. I was a little puzzled at first about how to make it look right and thought it might have to be dulled a little to match, but I got the receiver glossy enough and the sight looks perfect. Guess it was meant to be.

 

[Ian]

Got the lever sorted. I had removed all the rust from the lever with naval jelly today on my lunch break and found quite the mess underneath the crust. Since this part was originally color case-hardened, it is hard as a coffin nail and filing/polishing all the pits away was out of the question, I just polished it as best I could with 400 grit and some 2-0 steel wool to brighten it, and re-colored it. I think it turned out pretty well, considering all the etching, pits, and pinholes, and am happy to have that part behind me. This is kind of like the garage resto-mod that looks like a Chip Foose job from across the street, just don't get too close to it or you'll notice it ain't perfect. Wish I had better light, here's the only non-flash photo that turned out tonight:


With flash. I really need to drag out the old EOS for these shots, the Kodak has always had trouble with color accuracy and just about won't take a photo without the flash.

 

[Ian]

For reference, how it used to look:



How a really nice original looks, courtesy of Monte Whitley's photographer:

 

[fiver]

for the amount of tools your working with it's coming along very well.

I remember there being something like 10 or 12 different polishing wheels used on some of the older guns.
the guy's that could make them work properly were the ones that had 20+ years experience keeping square stuff square and round stuff round.

 

[freebullet]

Lookin good!

While you did that all I got done was another coat of mud on bathroom drywall & loading more 9mils.

Keep at it, will be shooting time soon.

 

[Ian]

Another small victory today.....got BOTH of the pins out of the bolt.

A big thanks to Bill for suggesting pressing rather than beating, I no doubt would have ruined the bolt trying to use even a perfectly fitting punch.

What I did was make a short pin punch by grinding down a needle bearing from a junk universal joint. Long punches just bow and buckle in a press, usually ruining parts and fingers in the process. Using our large arbor press at work and a couple of machined blocks for backup, I cracked both the extractor pin and cocking indicator/firing pin retainer pins loose and was able to press them completely out with no damage. All I had to do was practically hang on the 24"-long arbor press handle!

Now I can finally work on the breech face and get the rest of the bolt components cleaned up. There's 110 years of crud inside the bolt, it's never been apart since it left the factory, and it really shows. If I don't get lazy, I might still jewel it, now that the Craytex rod I ordered over a month ago finally came in.

 

[Pistolero]

Once I got my shop press, I learned that you can press out stiff that you would just pound into
junk if you tried to drive it out. And a lathe means I can make a super short (super stiff!) punch
out of 4140 for a couple minutes work, heat treat the tip and with a 20 ton hydraulic press, and some careful
thought to support (critical) you can really move stuff. Often just a short punch to start it moving,
then a more normal one will continue the push.

I straightened out a mower blade that the wife pretzeled with the press. Hitting it with a 3 lb
sledge just bounced it across the room, zero change. Smoothly applied force is way better, I
have learned. I always liked the "bigger hammer" approach, but there are better ways.

Glad it worked.

As to the Mark Lee #1, does it actually rust super fast (red rust) or is it sort of like a cold blue that
you boil and card? Looked at Brownells, and from what you and they said, seems way too fast to develop any
real red rust, but maybe it does it, just far faster than normal rusting. Looks really nice. I have a very
nice shooting old Rem 11 (Auto 5 clone) that has about no finish, it would be neat to refinish the old
girl. Picked it up on gunbroker for $150, works perfectly. Looks like a really well used goose gun, has
a Cutts and came with a ultra tight, long range tube. I made a more sensible tube for coyote's in the
yard, 12" pattern with #1B at 20 yds, more useful for me.

How did you do the color case? I thought this was packed in bone and leather and heated red hot
for a long time or something.

Bill

 

[fiver]

airc color case is charcoal and bone and the part packed up then heated.

 

[Ian]

I faked the color case on just the exposed part (only part that needed it) with BC Super Blue, a little trick I learned from a utoober. My plan was to use Stainless FX patina and a sponge, but I had some BC and thought I'd give it a try for the "antique" case color look before spending the bux for some more colorful solution. I've used the cold blue (diluted) before to brighten the colors of good but faded genuine color case-hardened parts, but this lever was too far gone to do that.

The trick is to dip the Q-tip in water first, sling off the drip, and then just dip the tip in solution. Doing that and applying only to the middle part of each surface, letting the water/blue mixture flow and track around as it wants to and etch here and there at different concentration levels gives the pattern.

 

[Ian]

Hit another road block, and if there's a real, square-bolt 1899 gunsmith left living I'd love to have a chat with him. So far the internet is not much help and I haven't found a decent book on the subject for sale yet.

My basic concern is the bolt only goes about 2/3 into lock on its own. I've always thought it was too low in the back when in battery but couldn't tell exactly why until I was able to get the striker indicator pin pressed out and the striker removed from the bolt (later models with the striker indicator on the top tang don't have that issue). The lever locking surfaces have practically zero wear (bad-A case hardening job!) and have never been filed or stoned, but I think someone over-arched the lever so it bites the ramp at the bottom of the receiver at a little too steep of an angle and takes more force to close than it should. As a result, the receiver is worn a little from the lever nose digging in, which puts the lever nose a little low and lets the back of the bolt come down some. Further study with the striker removed shows a lot of slack between the nose of the lever and the angled locking surface on the back/bottom of the bolt itself, and looking closer, I see a LOT of wear on the bolt, in fact the lever nose has cut a significant groove in it, adding to the tolerance and further letting the bolt fall down/back.

I think the fix, if any, is going to involve putting metal back on the bolt and working it smooth again. That will be tough to do because of the obvious metallurgical issues, but also because the worn surface is on one side of a 1/4"-wide, machined channel. I may talk to my local 'Smiff and get his opinion, if he even has one on this old-style action. I'll have to get this issue resolved before squaring the bolt face and finishing the chamber.

 

[Pistolero]

anyway to mill out a flat bottomed circular hole to remove the worn area, then press in a
replacement pin, green loctite, and then recut the active surface into the new metal,
which is way wrong, being a pin, at first, but will give you a new surface to recut to proper
height?
Milling machine work, it would seem.

Fake color casing seems to be pretty decent in the uTube example. Please explain more on
rusting or not with Mark Lee #1 Express Blue, if you would.

Bill

 

[freebullet]

Neat trick on the color.

real, square-bolt 1899 gunsmith

I absolutely do not meet that requirement but....

Could a small stop be fitted to prevent the over arching lever?

lever nose a little low

Is this the screw pivot holes wallered out? Solder shim stock to bottom of holes to bring up or weld & redrill?

I'd be apprehensive about welding the bolt for fill. Maybe a strip of stainless could be added to correct the thickness & provide a harder wear surface...? Brazing solders exist that might work without taking the bolt beyond its upper end operating temps. If room is good it might could wrap around & screw or pin on with the screws out of the way on the back or ?

Without detailed pics I'm not sure if any of that is viable, & itd be near impossible to get good ones of that, but some things to consider anyway.

 

[Ian]

I know, it was too late last night to take photos and none of what I wrote was going to make sense unless you have the parts in front of you or are super-familiar with tuning the savage action. It took me this long messing with it to 100% understand how the mechanism works and how all the parts inter-relate. It's a lot like a revolver with all the parts working together at once, and one little bit of tolerance affects everything else. What I need to do is take a video of it.

A wear strip soldered to the bolt was my first thought. Might work, but since the surface takes probably 1/3 of the total bolt thrust load I'm not sure even silver solder will hold it.



This is a later style bolt, but similar locking mechanism. Green line is where the wear is on mine, and is the bottom locking surface. Red is the lever nose. Blue is the locking "ramp" at the bottom of the receiver. The lever nose wedges between the bolt and receiver to lock the bolt upward. You can see from the angles of the upper bolt locking lug that most of the thrust force is vectored into the upper frame, but some thrust load is still transferred through the lever nose to the receiver floor.

I thought about stretching the lever nose to fill the gap, but the bolt needs some kind of hard-facing (weld, shim, etc.) and it's getting thin where the wear is, and will gall and wear even more in the future, so it makes sense to put metal back where it used to be rather than shifting other parts. Some wear on the receiver floor is giving me a little slack there, but it isn't nearly as much as the bolt wear is giving me, so I'd like to try and take up all the slack buy adding metal to the bolt. Now I know where the headspace went originally!