Seating depth - 30-06

[Inthebeech]

I just bought an FN commercial spotter (98 pattern) and slugged the bore. I have the discontinued RCBS 82020 mould which has a long nose section that measures .304. My groove diameter is .3095 and I intend to start out sizing them .310.
The diameter across the lands is smaller than the .304 nose so I will have to seat these bullets quite deeply in order for the round to chamber as the nose is not small enough to "ride" inside the tops of the lands. Is this customary? I am assuming it is and that there is no harm when there is a significant portion of the bulled that is deeper than the shoulder/neck junction.
I don't know what my diameter is across the tops of the lands but I suspect it is in the .290-plus minus something range. A cast bullet nose doesn't come close when I try to start it in the muzzle just as a test.
I've just never cast for rifles before and the above issue obviously never came up in the thirty years I've been casting for revolvers.
Thanks everyone.
Ed

 

[Tom]

I just bought an FN commercial spotter (98 pattern) and slugged the bore. I have the discontinued RCBS 82020 mould which has a long nose section that measures .304. My groove diameter is .3095 and I intend to start out sizing them .310.
The diameter across the lands is smaller than the .304 nose so I will have to seat these bullets quite deeply in order for the round to chamber as the nose is not small enough to "ride" inside the tops of the lands. Is this customary? I am assuming it is and that there is no harm when there is a significant portion of the bulled that is deeper than the shoulder/neck junction.
I don't know what my diameter is across the tops of the lands but I suspect it is in the .290-plus minus something range. A cast bullet nose doesn't come close when I try to start it in the muzzle just as a test.
I've just never cast for rifles before and the above issue obviously never came up in the thirty years I've been casting for revolvers.
Thanks everyone.
Ed

For bore riding designs such as yours, NOE makes nose sizing dies but it appears they are all out of stock at this time. I think KeithB (member here) makes some custom stuff but I don't remember off hand.
Others will chime in about seating depth.

 

[Inthebeech]

Does it make sense though that a standard offering would require a custom "bore riding section" sizer (which likely did not even exist back when this mold was first offered?). What was the "original intent" of RCBS (and others) when they designed these moulds I wonder.

 

[Tom]

I'm not familiar with that mould, but maybe it was designed for a cartridge that was a bit bigger in diameter than 3006 like the 303 British? Iirc, that one was about .314 or so.
Also, most .308 diameter barrels should have about .300 across the lands.

 

[Dusty Bannister]

The mold terminology is RCBS 30-180-SP and some sources show "out of stock".

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Ed,

I get the vibe this may be conjecture. Meaning its what you read and measure not what you have tried. 100% my assumption in written word so understand when Im coming from.

I love this bullet in all my 30/06 rifles. One Star Springfield one no name Mauser and one Remington Factory barrel. I seat to 2.975. I also powder cost so add inconsistent (not even) .001-.003 PER SIDE thickness. YES, it engages rifling. YES it shoots nice small often touching groups.



Its not a bad thing seating nose of a cast bullet into rifling.

CW

 

[fiver]

before you get all worked up.
make a dummy round and chamber it.

jus sayin,,, but personally i want the nose to engrave the rifling as much as i can.

 

[Inthebeech]

Just waiting for brass to show up and hopefully all will be fine.

Thanks guys for the advice.

 

[CZ93X62]

I have a postwar Husqvarna Mauser 98 in 30-06. Its lands and grooves are a ,300" x .308", maybe each a tenth fatter. Throat is on the dot at .3085". It is the most perfect 30-06 or 308 I have ever owned.

I have had several of both. Throats have run all the way to .310"+ , but lands and grooves have never been more than a a few tenths above or below the .300" x .308" standard--far more often above.

Where the leade rises up from the throat and at what angle is always a question. Every barrel is a law unto itself in that regard. Most rifle folk have their own ideas about leade clearance with a seated bullet. Jacketed lead-core bullets? My default setting is .030" of jump between the bullet ogive and the leade's contact reference point. Cast lead alloys? I run the edge of the front driving band up to kiss the leade slightly and center itself as much as possible. Bore riders that fit--like the Lee C-309-200 and the Lyman #311291--are excellent and accurate.

 

[Maven]

Just waiting for brass to show up and hopefully all will be fine.

Thanks guys for the advice.

I have a Mod. 70 Win. Westerner (blind magazine) in .30-06. I also acquired a Jim Allison/CBE single cavity bore rider mould* for it years ago and find that 3.18" OAL is a nice place to start. Btw, that CB is sized to .311".

* It looks like an elongated Lyman #311041, but with a longer nose or bore riding section and weighs ~185gr. It is also uses gas checks.

 

[Bret4207]

Listen to CW and Fiver Ed. Seating into the lands isn't a bad thing as long as you start off with something other than max loads. IOW, as always, start low and work your way up. Only takes a couple shots to see if things are good or bad. Also remember your alloy will come out different sizes in different moulds.

 

[beagle]

I shot that bullet for years in a Number 1 Ruger 06. Great bullet. At first I had the same problem as the bullet nose was oversize. I ordered an Eagan 310T tapered sizing die which has a degree and a half taper. This allowed me to taper the ogive until I got the seating depth I wanted and it shot great. After several years, the throat broke in and I was able to use the bullets as cast without the taper crimp treatment.
The other option is to have a gunsmith slightly open the throat to accept what you have. I'd not recommend this route.
Personally, knowing what I know now, I'd try shooting what I had for a while. Might be a non-problem and will in time get better as the throat wears a bit.
Shouldn't hurt to shoot 'em deep seated. Did mine like that until I got the taper crimp die./beagle

 

[Glaciers]

While on the subject of being a little fat in the nose, I just put in an order for a mold, expander plug, and a sizing die.
I have a couple of molds that cast 30 caliber bullets that have noses of .301 or larger, and a couple of rifles that I’d like to use these fatties in. Winchester 94 comes to mind.
But, the NOE sizer dies have a sharp edge which cuts and plows lead. Comparing the nose sizers to the body sizer which has a slightly radius to the entry. So I have 3 or 4 nose sizers and all have the sharp edge.
But in the 30 caliber air gun sizers they have body dies of diameters .298, .299, .300 and so on. So I ordered the .299 air gun body die in hopes of it having a radius entry. If it is radius then it should iron the nose and not cut.
Anyway that’s my hope, the die will be here this week and I will give it a try. If it works I will report back. If I’m all wet, then I’m only out $11.

 

[waco]

While on the subject of being a little fat in the nose, I just put in an order for a mold, expander plug, and a sizing die.
I have a couple of molds that cast 30 caliber bullets that have noses of .301 or larger, and a couple of rifles that I’d like to use these fatties in. Winchester 94 comes to mind.
But, the NOE sizer dies have a sharp edge which cuts and plows lead. Comparing the nose sizers to the body sizer which has a slightly radius to the entry. So I have 3 or 4 nose sizers and all have the sharp edge.
But in the 30 caliber air gun sizers they have body dies of diameters .298, .299, .300 and so on. So I ordered the .299 air gun body die in hopes of it having a radius entry. If it is radius then it should iron the nose and not cut.
Anyway that’s my hope, the die will be here this week and I will give it a try. If it works I will report back. If I’m all wet, then I’m only out $11.

Where did you order this die from?

 

[Glaciers]

NOE. I’ll know by the end of the week if they are beveled/radius.

 

[fiver]

need someone to make an X die, or copy the LEE collet neck size die for nose sizing.
then it could be adjustable and not scrape away at the nose.
it could also be made tapered.

 

[Glaciers]

Tapered would be good.

 

[popper]

Wonder if the Lee 270 die insert would nose size 308ish?

 

[Ian]

All that is fine and dandy for low-velocity shooting with decent accuracy. Seat the bullet as deeply as you need to for it to chamber with slight pressure on the bolt/lever, or leave them a little long, only remove enough of the case mouth bell with the crimp collar so that it will just scuff the chamber neck, and "seat them with the bolt". Beware that seating with the bolt will create a condition where extracting an unfired cartridge will usually de-bullet the case, dump powder in your action, and require a cleaning rod to knock the bullet out of the throat.

I take a different tack because, fundamentally, two-diameter Barlow bullets suck. Secondly, the term "bore rider" is a total misnomer beyond about 1000 feet per second unless A) you use something like linotype alloy, B) size the nose .0002" larger than the bore diameter immediately in front of the end of the throat, AND C) have 100% concentric, total neck clearance below .001". That gets you to 1800 fps or so with accuracy. Why? Because those tiny, skinny little lands don't "support" or guide the long nose of a silhouette bullet any better than a guardrail supports and guides the nose of a race car when it gets bumped up high into the marbles on the track at 170 MPH, and the result is about the same regarding performance after the collision. If you can START the bullet perfectly straight and perfectly fit it on both ends to begin with, it will do okay, but that "if" is huge and requires many more things done right and done the same way every time than most people care to even think about, much less actually learn how to accomplish.....unless you keep velocity extremely low where mangled, bent, cross-graved bullets still shoot halfway decent.

Try the 30HVTH1 from Arsenal Molds, size it .310" on the bands, seat it about .020" off the ball seat, use a good lube, make sure your gas checks are seated squarely and your alloy isn't too hard, and save yourself a lot of headaches. The Lee C312-155 ain't too bad, either, if you get one with a decent lube groove on it; some are very shallow and get almost wiped out at .310". SAECO makes one almost exactly like the Arsenal one and if you're really all in, spring for an MP 30 Silhouette.

 

[Glaciers]

Where did you order this die from?

Well I got the die in with my new mold this morning.
As far as nose sizing it’s not going to work. I was hoping that a body sizing die of .299 would work, but, the taper totally the opposite way. When I saw that I did a slap to my forehead. It was obviously not going to work.
But, I will get some better stones and make the sharp entry on the nose sizers I have radiused.



You can see the radius on the left die and the sharp edge on the nose sizing die on the right.
Seemed like a good idea at the time, but no.