Target damage saga continues

[Snakeoil]

Warning: Thread drift
I've been reluctant to say anything, but the fishy smell has become too overpowering.
Marine Viet Nam helicopter door gunner? Never heard of one, that was an Army occupation.
Even those of us who returned to the World never discussed our experiences -- not even among ourselves let along civilians -- unless asked.

You know, I was wondering about that. I know some of his other non-VN stories were a bit over the top. But never really thought much about his VN comments. So, after reading your comments, I did a little research on the USMC in VN and their use of helos. This is an excerpt from an article that I found. The article was titled, "The Marine Air War in Vietnam".

Helicopters played an extensive role in air operations in Vietnam, as Marine pilots flew CH-34s and later CH-46s and CH-53 Sea Stallions to transport Marines into landing zones near suspected enemy concentrations. They were also used to evacuate the wounded. Helicopters were also used to re-supply Marines in the field if landing strips were not available for use by C-130 transports. Other Marine pilots flew UH-1E Hueys and AH-1 Cobras. These choppers provided reconnaissance and armed air cover for combat air operations.

I would think that if the pilots were Marines then the crew would be Marines as well.

 

[CZ93X62]

Having never served in the Armed Forces, I don't have the experiences to draw upon to make assessments about the service experiences of others. It isn't my place to do so anyway.

Concerning my LE time, I relate events that I found humorous, ironic, and/or educational. The ugly stuff......no one needs that.

As to Snakeoil's target questions, I think targets have to be viewed as 'Consumables'. Same story for frames and backers. Gamers like the guy Snakeoil is describing are the folks that cause me to have zero interest in competitive shooting, and why 95% of the rounds I have expended over the years impacted in the desert east of where I'm sitting right now.

 

[jsizemore]

I'm not sure if your using a single swinger or 5-10 and counting hits then painting after each shooter. If it's the single swinger, then maybe you could cut one from cardboard and paint whatever color to designate it as the target for PC/jacketed bullet shooters. Get some black or white tape to use for pasters.

 

[Snakeoil]

Gamers like the guy Snakeoil is describing are the folks that cause me to have zero interest in competitive shooting, and why 95% of the rounds I have expended over the years impacted in the desert east of where I'm sitting right now.

I fully understand. The beauty of Wilton is there are no prizes. A results sheet gets printed and distributed and it's a safe bet that most forget who placed where 5 minutes after reading it. The best part of the results are usually the comments made by whoever does them that day regarding the trials and tribulations on the firing line. None of really care if he beats our score with his modern black rifle and HV loads. It's really more about the damage he's doing. We all help each other on the firing line with the goal of giving another shooter a chance to do better and/or even beat you. Knowing that 99% of the guys in the line are shooting ancient rifles (High Walls, Ballards, Hepburns, Rolling Blocks, Sharps, Springfields, Peabodies, and more) doing well amongst those guys is the goal. And to be honest, I really shoot against myself. The others simply provide a benchmark to either achieve or try to surpass. All humility aside, I normally do pretty well and have won more than my share of matches, many times with a perfect score. Several others are in the same category. We normally shoot with scopes (vintage glass like Lymans and Unertls) and so I suggested that we make more of a challenge. My point was if you are pissed off because you did not shoot a perfect score, the match is too easy. They agreed and I bought a set of 3 MOA targets for all the ranges we shoot. We first did it with the .22 matches and then did the same with centerfire. We also talked about buying some different shapes to add a new twist. We need to be careful that we don't make it so hard that your average shooter does poorly because that kills enthusiasm. Some will only be average shooters no matter what. We need to keep those guys happy, too.

For me, burning ammo or other things gets boring unless there is some challenge associated with it. You can do things by yourself, and get very good at it. But for me, I like a challenge and that means competing in some form. I keep tossing around the idea of getting something like a Porsche or a new mid-engine Vette. But I know that I would never take the car on the track to compete because it requires a major commitment. So, my fun car is my Miata, which I can probably outrun if I tried, and my vintage motorcycles which just naturally put a grin on my face.

Each to his own, right?

 

[JWinAZ]

One of my mentors was a crew chief on a Marine CH-46s 1969-70. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for his actions during a pickup of wounded. Included directing the gunners to targets on the ground and firing his rifle for suppressive fire.

 

[popper]

Anybody that could fly a chopper in Nam was used. I got out before it started but a HS buddy was a medivac chopper pilot, several hearts. Doesn't talk about it. Her dad was B24 nav/gunner. Only said anything when 3 sheets under. Fortunately all those I knew came back.

 

[RicinYakima]

Warning: Thread drift
I've been reluctant to say anything, but the fishy smell has become too overpowering.
Marine Viet Nam helicopter door gunner? Never heard of one, that was an Army occupation.
Even those of us who returned to the World never discussed our experiences -- not even among ourselves let along civilians -- unless asked.

I knew a Marine who was assigned as a machine gunner on a USMC Chinook helicopter. However, his MOS was Rifleman and was assigned to an independent security platoon in Da Nang. His position was on the M60 on the right side of the ship and the crew chief on the left side.

 

[462]

You know, I was wondering about that. I know some of his other non-VN stories were a bit over the top. But never really thought much about his VN comments. So, after reading your comments, I did a little research on the USMC in VN and their use of helos. This is an excerpt from an article that I found. The article was titled, "The Marine Air War in Vietnam".

Helicopters played an extensive role in air operations in Vietnam, as Marine pilots flew CH-34s and later CH-46s and CH-53 Sea Stallions to transport Marines into landing zones near suspected enemy concentrations. They were also used to evacuate the wounded. Helicopters were also used to re-supply Marines in the field if landing strips were not available for use by C-130 transports. Other Marine pilots flew UH-1E Hueys and AH-1 Cobras. These choppers provided reconnaissance and armed air cover for combat air operations.

I would think that if the pilots were Marines then the crew would be Marines as well.

I knew a Marine who was assigned as a machine gunner on a USMC Chinook helicopter. However, his MOS was Rifleman and was assigned to an independent security platoon in Da Nang. His position was on the M60 on the right side of the ship and the crew chief on the left side.

I learned something. Thank you, Rob and Ric.

That said, Phan Rang was 30-some miles South of Cam Rahn Bay and we didn't have any Marines about. There was the 101st Airborne for artillery support and headhunting Koreans.

 

[Snakeoil]

It's interesting how war captivates so many, including me. Same with gangsters from back during prohibition. Yet those who lived in the middle of it normally have no interest in knowing more about it. I can certainly understand that. I watched Hyena Road last night and it's a pretty good movie. But it's also very graphic and I can only imagine what seeing a movie like that would do to someone who was there and went thru similar or worse situations.

I think we have all seen way too many war movies where the heroes are glorified and almost always come home. I can understand that creating a desire to be put in a similar limelight. Rock and roll legends tend to generate similar desires in others. Although you cannot compare the two experiences, there are similarities. From the rock n' roll perspective, the life truly sucks. Sleeping in cars or the back of busses and then blowing your ears out at night might look like fun. But it takes its toll. The upside is they chose that path. Many who go to war have that path chosen for them.

 

[fiver]

And without PC you can't push the bullets that fast unless you want a lead lined barrel

okay it's 10 hours later and i've finally quit laughing.
how fast is fast?
i mean i guess i could bring the slow 2400~fps stuff over and we'll see how it does...


but i understand you guys wanna go pop.................. lalalalaaa ............ sip of coffee .................ding.
if so,, write it down on a chunk of paper and staple it up on the middle post.
then point at it at the next shoot.

 

[JonB]

The welded area was always the first place to crack and break.

that...and it's that area were MURPHY'S LAW sends my first bullet, LOL.
I seem to have that talent. It never fails, one of the first bullets at a new target setup becomes errant and hits the weakest area and busts something.
.
One time back in the 90s while shooting ML with a friend. We attempted some trick shot he seen somewhere, where you shoot at the edge of a axe, the bullet is cut into two halves, they continue on to pop two different well placed balloons. We didn't have balloons, so we just put a paper target on each side of a double bit axe that was lodged in a large log end. My Buddy shoots first, and I'll be danged he hit the edge, bullet split in two, a chunk of lead went through each of the two targets. OK, my turn, I shoot and hit low, right on the wood of the axe handle and took a big chunk out of it...My buddy yells, "DANG YOU, YOU WRECKED THE HANDLE OF MY FAVORITE AXE"

 

[RicinYakima]

"25% (648,500) of total forces in country were draftees. (66% of U.S. armed forces members were drafted during WWII). Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam. Reservists killed: 5,977 National Guard: 6,140 served: 101 died."

The rest of us were Regular Army or other enlistees.

 

[richhodg66]

OK, I don't shoot steel much and don't really know much about it, but can someone explain how a powder coated cast bullet is harder on steel than a jacketed bullet?

 

[fiver]

same way a 220 swift will punch through stuff a 30-06 can't.... magic.
that and BHN [shrug?]

 

[RBHarter]

I can offer up a 2600 fps 62 gr 222 Rem . Although I'm sure the terminal effect will be different with a 358 Win and a 250 gr at 2100 fps .
A greased or paper patched 130 gr in 270 or 7mm at 22-2400 fps at 100 yd makes about 30 cal holes in 1/4 crs with a half inch of plywood in front of it .
A 36 cal cap and ball RB of dead soft with a full charge of FFg will dent 1/4" cars at 25 yd .

The ar500 plates I have are marked by 3200 fps ball 55 gr 223 at 100 but will also show obvious impact circles from 45 cal 255 gr WW at 50 yd with 2000 fps MV .

I expect that unless the kids get crazy or for some reason I decided to test something like tungsten core solids in assorted small cal fast and flat cartridges like that 25-06 , 22-250 , of 264 WM that the dozen orr so gongs and gnomes will last as long as I do .

 

[Ian]

I'm still hung up on the PC sticking and making it hard to weld thing, because that's bullshit somebody's feeding you. Peened-on lead alloy and rust in between 47 coats of spray paint is no different. If you wanna get fancy and TiG on it, well that's what a Harbor Freight $10 sand blasting gun is for. Better choice is hook up DCEN and boil all the crud out of the crack or crater with a 6013 5P+ rod while standing upwind or with a fan behind you. I have welded up and reground my pistol spinners and homemade swingers many times without issue.

Ya'll got some things to sort out for sure at Wilton. There are lots of good solutions, just depends which direction you want things to go.

 

[Ian]

OK, I don't shoot steel much and don't really know much about it, but can someone explain how a powder coated cast bullet is harder on steel than a jacketed bullet?

Throw an orange at a piece of sheetrock as hard as you can. Then throw a baseball at it as hard as you can.

 

[Snakeoil]

okay it's 10 hours later and i've finally quit laughing.
how fast is fast?
i mean i guess i could bring the slow 2400~fps stuff over and we'll see how it does...


but i understand you guys wanna go pop.................. lalalalaaa ............ sip of coffee .................ding.
if so,, write it down on a chunk of paper and staple it up on the middle post.
then point at it at the next shoot.

So you are shooting plain lead bullets of some hardness at 2400 fps and above with no ill effects? Assume it is really hard alloy like linotype. I've never said I was an expert on this stuff. Always willing to learn more.

So what calibers, distances and group sizes do you get with your 2400+ fps plain cast bullet loads?

 

[Snakeoil]

"25% (648,500) of total forces in country were draftees. (66% of U.S. armed forces members were drafted during WWII). Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam. Reservists killed: 5,977 National Guard: 6,140 served: 101 died."

The rest of us were Regular Army or other enlistees.

Intetesting specs. I think many assume that the majority were draftees from poor backgrounds.

 

[Snakeoil]

I'm still hung up on the PC sticking and making it hard to weld thing, because that's bullshit somebody's feeding you.

I was surprised as well. But the guy saying this is a retired certified welder that worked on nukes. I figured it would just burn out with a stick welder. I've done some weld repairs on targets with the same welder. I'd clean them enough to get an arc. Never ran into a PC problem. Lots of old spray paint seemed to burn away with no issue. It's not like I'm welding super critical steam piping. But he's the club welder so I just listen.