Technicians and mechanics

Tom

Well-Known Member
A couple threads got me inspired to share my over priced .02 worth.
To me, modern technicians are able to pull the codes from an ecm and start replacing parts until the code goes away. I've known some fine mechanics that can figure out the problem without downloading the codes and fix things quickly. Not that we don't need both types in our world, but a good mechanic often fixes problems cheaper and better.
Case in point... I had a hub cap bolt break off in a hub. The average technician would've installed a new hub. Tim heated the bolt stub to red and applied synthetic 2 stroke oil to it. Rather than flash off, the 2 stroke oil penetrated and it was easily removed with no damage. Since then, I've never been without a 4 oz bottle of synthetic 2 stroke oil in my truck. Good mechanics have generations of knowledge in their heads and are well worth their wages.
 

Tomme boy

Well-Known Member
Lots of different types of mechanic's. Each has its own field of work. Then there are specialists in each field to further break it down in each field.

Kind of like what has happened in the medical field now. Each Dr is specialized in a certain field only.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Technically it takes 4 ASE certs to change a rotor , pads , and pack the bearings . The wheel and tire guy gets a piece too .

A tech wears a white coat and changes parts until the problem goes away .
A mechanic isolates the problem removes to offending part repairs it and puts it back .
The true mechanic is a dead trade when a fuel delivery issue is because of a wiper control module in the rear window wiper assy .

I love that the coil packs are now attached directly to the spark plugs via a low potential harness from a trigger device on the cam .........just like the old 194? High altitude radials fed via a roots type blower fed by an exhaust driven supercharger and a self regulating diaphragm pressure carburetor . How about that double overhead cam quad valve Rolls V12 ?

It was sure nice when a fuel delivery issue was actually found between the gas cap and intake valve someplace along a hard and flex line instead of being a pyrometer sender failure or an ignition switch failure ........
 

Ian

Notorious member
A technician is the guy who assesses and fixes all the things the mechanic screwed up by poking with a low-resistance test light or tried to bypass by wiring around, then finds and fixes the ORIGINAL problem, and makes half what the "mechanic" did because by the time the customer resorts to hiring a trained professional, they're nearly out of money.

Truth is, to fix modern washing machines, automobiles, or air conditioners, you have to be part computer scientist, a trained and educated technician, part engineer, AND have that basic mechanical knack for problem solving the stuff that comes up and isn't in the textbooks.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
The labels “Technician” and “Mechanic” get bantered around a lot these days.

When you get right down to it, the only real difference is those two words are spelled differently.

In the automotive field what we now call “Technicians” were called “Mechanics” about 30 years ago, maybe 50 years ago if we’re talking German cars. :rolleyes:

There are good technicians/mechanics and there are bad technicians/mechanics. The label has little to do with the skill.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
IMO "technicians" in the repair field are parts changers. Keep throwing parts at it until something seems to work. A "mechanic", IMO, is someone who can look at the same scanner the "technician" is looking at and see beyond that to waht the real problem is. Same idea as the guy at the parts counter who can't possibly find a part that isn't on the computer screen, and no way is he going to try to look in the rack of books in the back! I had 2 techs at my house over 2.5 months to fix a washing machine. In the end it was ME who noticed an unplugged lead that apparently the first tech never hooked up 2months before!

"Mechanic" is not a dirty word. "Technician" is getting to be one though!
 

Tom

Well-Known Member
A technician is the guy who assesses and fixes all the things the mechanic screwed up by poking with a low-resistance test light or tried to bypass by wiring around, then finds and fixes the ORIGINAL problem, and makes half what the "mechanic" did because by the time the customer resorts to hiring a trained professional, they're nearly out of money.

Truth is, to fix modern washing machines, automobiles, or air conditioners, you have to be part computer scientist, a trained and educated technician, part engineer, AND have that basic mechanical knack for problem solving the stuff that comes up and isn't in the textbooks.
You've given me something to consider. Since I'm stuck in the 90s, I didn't consider the increase in the amount of sensors on modern trucks.
Sorry for the insulting premise of my post.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
Tom, I don't think your post was insulting at all.

I've encountered an equal number of incompetent mechanics and technicians. You can call them whatever you want, the title doesn’t impact their skill or knowledge.

As the devices in our world get increasingly more complex, there is a tendency to label anyone that repairs something a “technician”. I don’t put a lot of credit into titles. I’ve met more than one PhD holder that was dumber than a pile of rocks. I’ve also met people that lacked formal education that were masters of their field.

My father was an engineer and he had great respect for “technicians” (for lack of a better term). He said that a room full of engineers might be able to design something, but it was highly unlikely they could build it. He worked closely with the people that turned designs into actual devices.

Labeling people as “parts replacers” is also applying a bit of a broad bush. Replacing components instead of repairing components isn’t necessarily a sign of incompetence or a lack of knowledge; sometimes it is the deliberate and knowledgeable course to take.

For example, A mechanic may know that an alternator has failed because the brushes are worn out. He could remove the alternator from the engine, take it apart enough to replace the $10 set of brushes (adding to the labor component of the repair bill), reassemble the alternator and re-install it on the engine. BUT, if that alternator has 10 years and 175K miles on it, how long before the bearings and diode bridge fail? Someone that elects to replace a part rather than repair a part doesn’t necessarily lack knowledge and skill; that may be an INFORMED decision to replace rather than repair. Yeah, I know, some people only know how to replace parts but that doesn’t mean that everyone that replaces a part is unskilled or lacks knowledge.

Rather than label someone as a Technician or a Mechanic, label them as skilled or unskilled.
 
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JonB

Halcyon member
I'm not sure the terms transfer the same from field to field?

My two year degree (in 1985) labeled me a Electronic Technician. Our College/trade school instructors kind of looked down on the Electrician class in the room next to ours. While I did get a job as a Electronic Technician out of school, my work has evolved from one thing to another, to another...funny thing is, the last years of my career were much more like an Electrician than a Electronic technician...or rather a hybridized version of both, combined with mechanical and pneumatic control technician...and topped of with "UL Code" master (said "tongue in cheek", LOL).
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
......Truth is, to fix modern washing machines, automobiles, or air conditioners, you have to be part computer scientist, a trained and educated technician, part engineer, AND have that basic mechanical knack for problem solving the stuff that comes up and isn't in the textbooks.

Spot-on, Ian!

Even a computer scientist is of little use on appliances because they "burn" the crude logic onto a chip and that's that. No one can go online and watch what's happening to diagnose/troubleshoot. The chip is typically extremely limited (cheap), with too little memory, crude programming systems, cruder communications, etc. that even "code readers" aren't much use.

I discovered a little trick on home heating furnaces and applied it to a dishwasher once - gain an understanding of the sequence of operation, which you don't get, troubleshoot based on logic and determine the part you need to replace, which will be "the board" 99% of the time. Call a local repair place, tell them to make sure the tech has a "board" for your model in the van - INSIST upon that.

The tech will come out (they usually know nothing about the exact appliance they are working on and their bosses won't pay for "code readers,") do what you did, and conclude that "yep, you need a board." HEY! Guess what! You have on in the van! If t hey swap the board and that's not the problem (the ones I've dealt with) they won't charge you for that part. The trick is to ask up front or they WILL charge you.

If it IS the actual problem (99% of the time it IS), the service call is either just over or just under what it would have cost to buy the board online and have it over-nighted.

Here's another tip on appliances most of you probably know already; somewhere, hidden on/in that appliance is a much more useful set of instructions for troubleshooting the unit, meant for the tech who arrives on the scene with no clue about YOUR particular appliance. Using the above technique, I've let the tech start to look for that document and when they realize it's not there, I hand it to them, along with my notes and corrections. Last guy (for the dishwasher) just grinned and started asking me questions. He'd never seen one of these dishwashers. We got on just fine and my TOTAL bill was less than what the board alone would have cost me if I'd bought it. Short something on that board and you buy another. Tech shorts something on that board and HE buys another. They have a lot more "cred'" when arguing with suppliers over whether a board arrived deffective as well.
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
Many shops discourage repair of original parts because of potential liability concerns. If you fix it, and it works forever, you're a hero, but you'll receive complaints about how much labor cost was involved. It you fix it and there's another failure, customers want it repaired/replaced, free of charge. I've worked with some extremely gifted mechanics, and I've worked with guys who can't find their asses (a***s?) with both hands. It's all in the diagnosis, and few mechanics are great diagnosticians.

The vehicle manufacturers teach mechanics to throw parts at the problems. Scanners only tell them what the computers complaint is, not what the actual issue is. Sometimes it's simple, other times, not so much. All you get is a list of potential causes. It's necessary to look at the performance history of the related systems to see it you can find an anomaly somewhere. This is the basis of diagnostics, but is often overlooked due to inexperience, inadequate diagnostic equipment, or time restrictions. Nobody wants to pay for diagnostic charges, and they need their vehicle repaired immediately. They need to pick up the kids at soccer in a half-hour. Sometimes there's not time to do things right, but there's always time to do things over.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
358156 hp - I totally agree that there are situations when the time and effort to completely diagnose a problem outweighs the time & effort to simply replace some part or assembly. Factors such as labor rates, unsatisfied customers, future failures, and just plain time out of service – sometimes make simple part swap outs the preferred method. Labor rates and unhappy customers are probably the biggest factors.

Transmission work was a classic example. You have to pull the transmission, tear it down, figure out what needs to be replaced, get the parts, re-assemble the transmission, install the transmission. If the vehicle was some hot rod or week-end car – no big deal. It can sit while you fix what you have. BUT, if it is an only vehicle, a work vehicle or emergency vehicle: swapping the entire transmission is the way to go. The knowledge, specialized tools and time required to re-build a transmission are hard to come by. Particularly the time.
 

Joshua

Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
Even a computer scientist is of little use on appliances because they "burn" the crude logic onto a chip and that's that.


38DAAEAF-2DC7-4C76-88EE-DAF50C1EC7C6.jpg
I have replaced three stoves in the last 17 years because the computers went bad. I won’t buy a range with a computer any longer.

They still sell low end ovens with thermostats like in the picture above. It’s a twenty minute fix to replace them.

I replaced the range in our rental house with one of these. Our new house will get one of these ovens also.

My father lives out on an island and has a good relationship with his local appliance repair man. The element went out on their twenty year old washer and dryer.

After the repair man replaced the element they had a talk. My dad said that my stepmother really wanted a new washer and dryer set. The repair man was strongly against the new purchase. But my stepmother couldn’t listen to reason. My parents both now admit it was a bad decision to replace the perfectly functional washer and dryer. The new units have been nothing but trouble.
 

Ian

Notorious member
358156 and P&P are right on.

Tom, I didn't take offense, and I get what you were trying to say, it's just that the whole deal is more complex than it first appears.

What the tech did with the oil was quench just the bolt stub to shrink it loose. Water cools parts faster but boil point can be too low for spot-quenching a tiny screw stuck in a huge heat sink and it just steams off. Having knowledge of and
thinking about how to make physics and chemistry work FOR you when working on machines is practically a requirement of the job.

I'm an ASE Master/L1 certified auto technician (plus others, now expired), a mechanic, an educated but un-certified engineer, a trained but uneducated computer network technician, a mind reader, a healer, and some days feel like a bona fide miracle worker. The problem with trying to define the qualities of any tradesman is you must be able to stand in their shoes for a bit and see what they ACTUALLY do, not just what you IMAGINE they do. For example, I could say there are pilots and there are plane drivers:

"Plane drivers wear shoulder boards to work, poke in a destination on a guidance computer, hit the go button, maybe turn the big heading knob on the autopilot console when ATC tells them to, and screw off the rest of the time in the air. When a mechanical emergency arises, they have a hard time because of lack of basic stick-and-rudder skills. I could then say that pilots on the other hand fly manually a lot and really understand their machine, its full performance envelope, and how to handle it in adversity. Pilots don't need nobsteenking checklist, they memorized them all for every scenario on every type rating."

Truth is I don't know any more about Sully's or Snort's line of business than the man in the moon, yet it's easy to THINK so and make uneducated and mostly false assessments regarding automation and the loss of "real" flying skills among commercial aviators or to think a Tomcat pilot could land a loaded passenger jet deadstick in a river and everyone walk away.

A mechanic/technician is more or less forced to be an over qualified parts changer because sub-assemblies are deliberately designed to not be serviced in the field. The reason we don't just put brushes, bearings, and a rectifier bridge in a worn out alternator is because the Delco 10SI hasn't been put in vehicles in over 30 years and we can't get parts for modern ones very easily. Another reason is warranty and cost. If I rebuild something and it quits again in a week, I get to do it again for free. If I change a part and if quits in a week, the manufacturer or rebuilder pays me to replace it again. Still another reason is liability. I used to overhaul brake calipers, wheel cylinders, master cylinders, steering gears, power steering pumps etc. because $5 in seals and the labor to rebuild was more money in my pocket and overall often cost the customer less than slapping on a reman part. I had fewer problems than with rebuilt garbage. However, lawyeritis has ruined all that. The expense of machine tools precludes resurfacing heads and doing valve jobs. Tolerences are so tight a warped head often can't be surfaced anyway.

The derogatory term "parts changer" means someone is incapable or unwilling to properly pinpoint the failure point and throws parts at the problem hoping it will go away. Plenty of that going on. There's a flipside though, like the diesel Jeep that came in for a check engine light due to a stored, intermittent dtc for an egr pressure sensor circuit. I read through the diag procedure and priced the part. Due to difficulty in accessing any of the wiring, harness connections, or involved computer modules, I advised the customer that I could throw a new sensor at it for about $100 parts and labor and have a really good chance of fixing it, they could have the vehicle back right away and drive it for a few days to confirm that fixed it, or I could keep their vehicle several days to tear into it to positively pinpoint the problem in between other jobs the tune of $500-800. We threw a sensor on it and two months later it's still fixed when they came back for a routine oil change. All we can really do as techs working on computerized equipment is check the inputs, outputs, wiring, and communication signals and change the bad component or repair bad connections. It would be nice to have access to the software programs and more complete descriptions of the computer strategy, but at the end of the day we techs don't always need to know why a failure occurred, only what part is causing the failure and have reasonable assurance that we have found the root of the problem so it won't keep happening.

A customer's AC wouldn't work. Another shop had put a compressor and then an engine computer on it because the clutch would only blip and wouldn't stay on. I fixed it with another computer and a relay. The relay was the root cause because of low resistance in the coil. Low resistance was letting too much current to the ecm's internal ground-side control transistor, causing it to fry. The relay coil was only about 10 ohms below specification, but it was enough to fry the transistor. The first shop failed to properly test the whole compressor clutch control system to determine WHY the computer had fried. Parts changers? Maybe they just lacked all the information they needed about the system and guessed? Maybe too busy/too much pressure to spend the time to do it right? I don't know because I wasn't there, so I won't throw stones.

I think the discussion boils down to the increasing technical complexity of machines outpacing older generations, needing computers and a lot of technical education AND common sense instead of just common sense to fix stuff, and the timeless problem of varying degrees of competence. Your best auto mechanic from 1980 couldn't even replace a battery on a 2020 Ram pickup without causing a myriad of problems. Your most qualified young tech at dealership likely couldn't tune a carburetor or use a dwell angle meter if their life depended on it, but likely figure out why your phone won't link with the integrated center stack or why your selective reduction catalyst isn't regenerating like it should.
 
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popper

Well-Known Member
I got to be a parts changer (we called it easter-egging) when somebody of very high pay grade decided to place a (~200) relay ladder-logic test set on a 670' ocean going vibrating machine. Observe, isolate the problem, fix-it normal logic doesn't always work.
 

Joshua

Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
I work for one of the world’s largest maintenance organizations. I started there when I was 35 years old. I was already a journeyman when I hired on. I learned my trade in small shops. In those small shops you had to wear many hats. I ended up with a broad skill set because of it.

At 35 I was basically told by more than a few managers at this megalithic organization that all my previous experience in related trades was of no value. They want you to put on blinders and do your one very specific job. And above all don’t teach those “bad habits” to your young and impressionable co-workers.

I mention all this because I want to stress the point that mechanics, tradesman, journeymen, and technicians, gain skill through experience. I have worked with many highly skilled people at this large organization; these same skilled individuals have huge blind spots because the culture of management has actively discouraged development of skills in those adjacent trade areas.

In medicine there is a specialty called a Hospitalist. If you delve into the history of why this specialty was created you will encounter terms like “efficiency”, and “continuity of care”. Those terms hide a darker truth. Basically patients with complicated conditions that required multiple specialists were being killed because the doctors lacked the ability to effectively communicate with each other. They were so focused on their body part/system that they ignored the needs of the whole patient in relation to other care and or therapies.

There are advantages and disadvantages when workers become over specialized. Large organization seam to lack the ability to stop the over specialization phenomenon. Even when an organization identifies the problem, the solution most often implemented creates more inefficiency, the organization will often add a new layer of management, rather than try to change the culture of an organization. This new layer of management/oversight will often hamper the decision making ability/freedom of the worker.
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
It is a flaw in the human animal to "build a bridge" between what you do know, and what you don't know, we call those bridges "assumptions". It is instinctive and inescapable. All we can do is train ourselves to not get the cart ahead of the horse if possible. This forces us to make assumptions, and assumptions are rarely correct. I've had upset customers rake me over the coals over their own ignorant assumptions. We all have. And we get accused of "hiding" something when we simply don't have the information yet that we need to make a decision. Knowing that we don't have enough information to make a decision yet is a critical part of the decision making process known as "experience". Many times, I don't know the correct answer, but I have a pretty good idea of what the wrong answer is when I hear it.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
To my mind a lot of the problems Ian, Josh and 358 speak of is caused, at least in part, by the "NEW! IMPROVED!" mindset of industry. What works and works well isn't good enough. Part of that can be caused by gov't mandates, as in unrealistic fuel economy standards, and part by consumer demand for, say, easier to use controls. But a big part of it is the "NEW! IMPROVED!" mantra. Example- the headlight dimmer switch on the floor worked fabulously for decades. Yes, they could get rusty and if the floor rotted out they didn't work great. But they were $7.00 to replace and if the floor was that rotted, you had other, larger problems. But they had to fix what wasn't broken and go to something that could cause you wiper to come on or shut off or even kill the engine in traffic sometimes because it was "NEW!" and "IMPROVED!" There was nothing wrong with mechanical controls on washing machines and dryers, stoves and tools and appliances. There wasn't a darn thing at all wrong with a pilot light on a gas stove! Now it's circuit boards, made to low bid in China, that aren't built to withstand vibration, moisture, heat or cold, etc. with the absolute minimum amount of solder on the board so the cracked joints are nearly assured. Personally, I have no need of ABS brake systems or TPM sensors that cause my wife to decide a vehicle is undriveable because a dash light is on. But since no one seems to be able to think for themselves anymore I suppose this is just the start of things.

Rant off.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Really good observation, Bret.

Automotive is a feature-driven market. Everything is, really.

Remember just a few years ago when the canned bean section of the grocery store had pinto, lima, green, black, and kidney? Now the bean section contains a dozen or more brands, all with their own flavored or stylised products. Do consumers bombard Bush's with letters demanding a new "slow cooked candy-maple-bourbon-vanilla" to fill a niche? Nope. The "bean counters" keep introducing new product to boost sales for a month or two. This new product game becomes a way to out-do the competition when price point and quality have been stretched as far as possible.

Vehicles are so feature-packed now that they exceed the learning curve of a large portion of their owners. Not that your average person isn't capable, more like just not interested enough to learn a completely new to them interface system. Now that buttons, knobs, and levers have almost all been replaced with a touch screen with layers of menus, many people have trouble figuring out how to dim their dash lights or turn on their rear wiper. RTFM doesn't do any good because let's face it, almost no one ever has or will because in the past vehicle controls were pretty obvious and all covered in driver's education class and it doesn't occur to them to read instructions.

I can't count the times I've asked a customer where their manual is so they can read about the feature they think is broken, and the response is "oh, I took it out because it took up too much room". Really? REALLY? Then I charge them the time it takes me to solve the problem, including educating them. They bitch and moan, but I don't work for free.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
My wife has an '09 Explorer, the last of the "truck" types before they went to the doofus "crossover" idea. Every now and again the car will yell at her asking if she wants to run a diagnostic scan or something like that. She has zero idea how to stop it, I offered but she doesn't trust me messing with anything electronic...for good reason actually, but we won't go into that story. Suffice it to say that stepping on the brakes should not result in the radio station changing. Anyway, I'm one of the "read the manual" types and even after that, I still can't figure out a great deal of the stuff I'm supposed to do as far as the electronics go. Simple controls were fine by me, but then I haven't had a car payment since 1995, so I'm probably not the consumer the auto industry is marketing to!