Took me long enough

[L Ross]

I have been playing with handguns for 46 years. In 43 years as an LEO I carried a Model 15 S&W, then a Model 19, (my favorite), only to be "transitioned" to a semi auto against my will. I had a couple of centerfire semi autos during those years that I sort of liked, such as a Combat Commander. The Dept. mandated the S&W 469, a firearm I deeply disliked. Then I had a 6906, and finally the Dept. went to Glock and I chose a Model 36. I have done respectable work with it but I could never say I truly liked it. I did like the fact that it is very light, compact, and made an okay duty gun and an excellent concealable handgun. It just didn't feel good in my hand.

None of them, even the 1911, ever "felt" good in my hand. My favorite handguns as far as just feeling right in my hand, are Colt clone cap and ball handguns, clone Open Tops which are just cap and ball conversions. Colt SAA feel great, S&W K frames also, but semi autos, meh, none of them have the point and shoot feel like those revolvers.

Then a friend brought a Browning Hi-Power to one of my shoots for our buy, sell, trade, among friends gatherings. I picked it up and it felt great, just great in my hand. I made a trade for it and shot it a little and then stuck it in the safe. It is my only 9 m/m and that is the main reason I kept it, a gun in that caliber that I can load quickly and easily with a Dillon. The 9 is a dirt common caliber and every shooter should have one in their stable. The other day I was shooting my Glock 36 .45 acp in preparation to qualify for my HR 218 and I remembered the Hi-Power in the safe. I dug it out and stuck it in a holster and started shooting 4" squares off a rail at 10 yards and it was just a piece of cake! I had never shot the Hi-Power drawing from the holster, always just deliberate slow fire. I started out drawing and dry firing in a slow and smooth motion for form, then live ammo, then a little faster. Draw, thumb off the safety, and fire, and hit after hit. It points for me like a shotgun that fits. An absolute first for a semi auto and I didn't realize it until I started to push the urgency a little.

My only regrets is I did not figure this out sooner. I may have actually found a centerfire semi auto that I like as much as a K frame S&W.

 

[CZ93X62]

If the Browning HP fits and runs for you, then you MUST give the CZ-75 a test drive. Almost-identical ergonomics to the BHP, and enough heft to soak up 40 S&W recoil without any fuss & bother. Steel enables that. It can be carried cocked & locked like the BHP and 1911, too. There are decocker variants if you are so inclined, also. Condition One finishes first with me.

 

[RicinYakima]

It is a generational/training thing. I grew up shooting S&W K-frames since I was able to hold them up. Trained in the Army on the 1911, then back on the Model 10 as a LEO. Those two always fit, nothing else is close.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

The Hi-Power has one of the best grip designs I’ve ever encountered on a double stack pistol. And Al beat me to the CZ-75 recommendation/comparison.

Of those two guns, I think the CZ-75 is far more advanced. It has a DA/SA trigger, A slide fitted inside the frame rails and those rails are long and the trigger linkage is a lot simpler than the Hi-Power. However, the Hi-Power is no slouch. That design was once widely distributed in NATO countries and was one of the most issued pistols in the free world. It saw a LOT of service, by a LOT of countries, for many years.

Every person is different but in terms of grip designs, the Hi-Power is often a winner.

 

[L Ross]

Thanks guys for the advice on the CZ-75, never handled one much less shot one. The DA/SA trigger was one of the things I disliked most on the S&W autos. A double action revolver that is smooth is a joy, but it doesn't go the SA for subsequent shots. I always found that transition disconcerting. The light weight of this Portugal assembled Hi-Power is truly one of its assets. I have expressed on this Forum a number of times that I find a handgun that is either too big, too awkward, (optical sights), or too heavy just doesn't get carried. A handgun is only used for its convenience for me, period. Otherwise if I think I am actually going to shoot something, either while hunting, or back when I was responding to high risk calls, I took a long gun.

As much as I liked the Model 19 and its stainless iteration, it is marginal if put on a belt one wears in his trousers. On a real gun belt, it is mostly unnoticed for hours at a time. My days of wearing a fully exposed duty belt are finally behind me. The best I can manage is a Simply Rugged 2" belt with an outside the waistband holster just behind my right hip bone. That requires some type of coat, or jacket to cover it up. A Galco ITW worn in front of my left hip bone in a cross draw configuration typically gets the nod with a S&W 642 in it. If I am driving some place I don't care for a Crossbreed IWB with the Glock 36 goes behind my right hip, but it does dig into the truck seat and my back at the same time.

I put that Hi-Power in an OTW holster with the Simply Rugged belt and found it to be totally comfortable. I just picked up a Galco ITW for it. Of course that holster will also fit a 1911. I tried both the Hi-Power and a Springfield Armory Fully Loaded 1911 in both holsters and the 1911 is simply too heavy. Whether I can adjust to the length of the Hi-Power poking down into my trousers remains to be seen.

I absolutely agree in most cases that handgun cartridges should start with a .4, (the fully power .357 an exception), if pure performance were the only criteria. But a more powerful handgun lying in the gun safe is small comfort if something truly goes horribly wrong, or a half witted coyote finally wanders across my path at close range.

I am lucky that Remington shotgun stocks fit me so well. I had a Beretta Golden Snipe 20 ga O/U that was the most natural pointing shotgun I ever owned. If I still had grouse to hunt I would never had let that one go. I think for myself, the ergonomics on this Hi-Power may fall into this user friendly category.

 

[Rick H]

I think L Ross hit on something that we all tend to forget. A person has to feel comfortable with his weapon. We argue and fuss trying to force square pegs into round holes. I trained with a 1911 in the Army and cut my teeth on double action with S&W K-frame revolvers. When transferred to plain clothes I switching to a 1911 Series 70 Government model. They both worked for me. When I hit the road again as a supervisor I carried a Sig P220 (the dept. withdrew approval of 1911's).

Then the dept. mandated we carry Glocks. They never pointed well for me. I never shot them as well as the Smiths, Sig, nor 1911. I still have the Glock 23 that I retired with it sits in the safe, a reminder of earlier times.

 

[Bret4207]

I have been playing with handguns for 46 years. In 43 years as an LEO I carried a Model 15 S&W, then a Model 19, (my favorite), only to be "transitioned" to a semi auto against my will. I had a couple of centerfire semi autos during those years that I sort of liked, such as a Combat Commander. The Dept. mandated the S&W 469, a firearm I deeply disliked. Then I had a 6906, and finally the Dept. went to Glock and I chose a Model 36. I have done respectable work with it but I could never say I truly liked it. I did like the fact that it is very light, compact, and made an okay duty gun and an excellent concealable handgun. It just didn't feel good in my hand.

None of them, even the 1911, ever "felt" good in my hand. My favorite handguns as far as just feeling right in my hand, are Colt clone cap and ball handguns, clone Open Tops which are just cap and ball conversions. Colt SAA feel great, S&W K frames also, but semi autos, meh, none of them have the point and shoot feel like those revolvers.

Then a friend brought a Browning Hi-Power to one of my shoots for our buy, sell, trade, among friends gatherings. I picked it up and it felt great, just great in my hand. I made a trade for it and shot it a little and then stuck it in the safe. It is my only 9 m/m and that is the main reason I kept it, a gun in that caliber that I can load quickly and easily with a Dillon. The 9 is a dirt common caliber and every shooter should have one in their stable. The other day I was shooting my Glock 36 .45 acp in preparation to qualify for my HR 218 and I remembered the Hi-Power in the safe. I dug it out and stuck it in a holster and started shooting 4" squares off a rail at 10 yards and it was just a piece of cake! I had never shot the Hi-Power drawing from the holster, always just deliberate slow fire. I started out drawing and dry firing in a slow and smooth motion for form, then live ammo, then a little faster. Draw, thumb off the safety, and fire, and hit after hit. It points for me like a shotgun that fits. An absolute first for a semi auto and I didn't realize it until I started to push the urgency a little.

My only regrets is I did not figure this out sooner. I may have actually found a centerfire semi auto that I like as much as a K frame S&W.

I'm with you! The Smiff 19 just felt "right" in my hands. I never handled a semi that felt "good" until I handled the Hi Power I took off a guy I arrested. My wifes EAA Witness has a similar feel. Not a 9mm fan but the Witness is a 40 which is "more better" as my FIL used to say. I think the Hi Power was made in 40 and maybe 45 at some point, or maybe it was a clone, but I seem to remember them.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Every person is different and grips are one of those things that you must work out yourself.

I can't speak for others but the transistion from DA to SA on a traditional DA/SA pistol was never something that caused me trouble, and I'm a DA revolver guy.

 

[CZ93X62]

We had some concerns as range staff that "transition shooting" with the D/A pistol our shop authorized in 1987 would be problematic for people converting over from revolvers; not really. There were concerns that the 45 ACP might have too much recoil for some shooters; not really. (40 S&W causes a few issues for a few people). Training and familiarization can overcome these supposed problems, if they crop up. And we all have our preferences and dislikes.

 

[oscarflytyer]

Never shot a HP. Almost everything else. The feel good in my hand guns are the Luger/1911/Ruger MK II and SA revolvers. Mdl 10 is a very close second. Having said that, my 9mm story that mimics yours is with my Star BM 9mm. Feels like a smaller 1911 and one day for kicks I did some combat drills and found I shot it the best of everything! And I pd ~$239 for it/got it just becuase!

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

First thing that came to Mind reading first post was CZ-75, as mentioned and advised.


The Hi POWER was VERY Good, but the CZ IS the emphasis of a ergo grip.
Interesting and accurate analogy to a shotgun. A proper fitting shotgun in the hands of a practiced user is a thing to behold. As can be a handgunner having same Intimacy.
CW

 

[Glaciers]

Well I’m probably going to give you guys a chuckle.
I don’t know much about semi-autos, been a wheel gun guy from day one. Reasons early on my first was a Smith 469 or something in 9mm. I tried a few others and just didn’t like how they felt which lead to not being able to shoot them well. Tried the Colt 45’s of the years, as a matter of fact I just traded off my last Colt clone 2 years ago. Ended up with Ruger 89’s and Springfield XD 45’s. Figured if I was going to have one of the semi’s might as well go for capacity. I carry a revolver in various calibers, depending on the need. Pocket gun, or hip or chest rig for the larger guns.
Just how things fit in my hand and mind.
But, I will admit that a little training on how to properly hold and shoot a semi, I could probably live with one. Well then I bought (on my brothers recommendation) and shot a Berreta 92 FS. It felt and pointed comfortably for me and I was making hits right out of the box. Yes they are big and some say clunky, but it’s a belt gun not for concealed carry in my mind. If I want a concealed gun it will be a wheel gun. The old Ruger shoots pretty well for me, and it’s not going anywhere, but I’m looking for a second 92 to keep the first company.
My favorites are still Smith K frames, what’s not to like.

 

[oscarflytyer]

forgot... had one of the original available (I think) CZ75s circa 1987/1988 - while stationed in Germany. I WISH I still had that gun!

 

[Winelover]

Browning HP was my second pistol purchase in the mid 70's. Days after the 6" Royal Blue Python. Learned to reload the 9mm cartridge, for that firearm. Lost track of how may rounds went down that barrel. Stopped counting around 6K rounds. Portugal gun. Fragile rear adjustable sight was replaced with a Millet. Cylinder & Slide ambi safety was installed (I'm LH) and magazine disconnect was removed for better trigger pull. Frame was redone in satin hard chrome by master gunsmith Frank Paris of Redford, Michigan. CT Laser grips were installed............it was by bedside gun, for many years, in Detroit.



It is the main reason I never purchased a 1911...............don't care for cocked and locked on a defensive pistol. Except for Ruger 22's, never purchased another SA pistol. I own four other DAO 9 mm pistols. My revolver purchases mimic that also. Own a total of two SA pistols, both Rugers............. 45 LC Blackhawk and a ROA.

I do like the grip. Hardly, gets fired any more. Too heavy for daily carry. YMMV

 

[obssd1958]

DOA - was that purposeful or Freudian?

 

[Petrol & Powder]

The Browning Hi-Power is an iconic gun. Of its many excellent attributes, the grip is one of the top features. The gun seems to fit and point well for many people. John Browning started work on the design around 1922 and applied for the first patent related to what would later become the Hi-Power in 1923. John Browning died on November 26, 1926; long before the design was completed. Dieudonne Saive deserves the lion’s share of the credit for the Hi-Power.

FN had the ability to use the Browning name and they were not about to lose that marketing advantage. FN heavily promoted their association with John Browning to the point that the generic name for a self-loading pistol in Europe was simply “A Browning”, regardless of make. By the time the Model of 1935 pistolet automatique, Grand Puissance (1935 Hi-Power) appeared, John Browning was long dead, but FN was going to capitalize on his name.

The P-35 or Browning Hi-Power went on to be widely accepted throughout the world.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Winelover introduces some key points about the Hi-Power, at least in its original configuration.

The safety was not ambidextrous, and the early type factory safety lever is not very large. This was improved over time and larger safety levers and levers on both sides appeared later. For a military pistol routinely carried with an empty chamber, this probably wasn’t a big deal.

The magazine safety is a source of complaints. The magazine safety on a Hi-Power is not one of the pistol’s better features. It drags across the front face of the magazine, increasing trigger pull weight and prevents the magazine from falling free when the mag is released. A lot of users remove the magazine safety. Fortunately, the mag safety is easy to remove and can be replaced if needed, as long as the parts are retained.

Winelover mentions Cylinder & Slide. For those of us that have been around a while, we know that C&S was once THE source for aftermarket Hi-Power parts. That brings back some memories!

 

[L Ross]

Winelover introduces some key points about the Hi-Power, at least in its original configuration.

The safety was not ambidextrous, and the early type factory safety lever is not very large. This was improved over time and larger safety levers and levers on both sides appeared later. For a military pistol routinely carried with an empty chamber, this probably wasn’t a big deal.

The magazine safety is a source of complaints. The magazine safety on a Hi-Power is not one of the pistol’s better features. It drags across the front face of the magazine, increasing trigger pull weight and prevents the magazine from falling free when the mag is released. A lot of users remove the magazine safety. Fortunately, the mag safety is easy to remove and can be replaced if needed, as long as the parts are retained.

Winelover mentions Cylinder & Slide. For those of us that have been around a while, we know that C&S was once THE source for aftermarket Hi-Power parts. That brings back some memories!

Yes indeed, ample reasons not to like the magazine safety. Having to insert a magazine to decock was annoying, the trigger pull got better, magazines fall free immediately, and if you ever needed to fire that remaining round during a magazine exchange you can, all by removing it.

 

[Rick H]

The magazine safety. An answer to a problem that doesn't exist. A fellow on my department purchased some spare magazines for his new auto pistol ( I seem to remember it was a S&W model 59) and he thought the new mag looked different and he wanted to make sure it functioned with the magazine safety. So while sitting in the parking lot of the gunshop he pulled his loaded mag out of his pistol inserted a new one and promptly blew a hole in his lower leg breaking and the floorboard of his Pontiac. Evidently the new magazine functioned quite well with the magazine safety.
My point is you still have to keep your wits about you and know there might be one up the spout....and keep the damned thing pointed away from anything you are not willing to destroy.

 

[Winelover]

DOA - was that purposeful or Freudian?

I seem to be transposing letters, quite regular, when typing. Must be that old fart thing.