What do we know about shooting cast in extreme cold weather?

Ian

Notorious member
From what I remember I think you can pretty much forget any of Lar's lubes for sub-zero work. LBT Blue Soft is similar to Apache Blue (may in fact be the same recipe) which is very similar to the SL-68 series of lubes and Starmetal lube. The last two did respectably in sub-zero testing. You don't want carnauba, you don't want light paraffin oils like Dexron III, and if you have a slickum modifier like castor oil or ester oil, don't use it at a higher ratio than 50:1.

I also think the various iterations using lithium soap grease have done poorly in extreme cold, but Pete will have to fact-check me on that.

You want a "dry" lube. That means firm wax blends plasticized with softer waxes and heavy paraffinic oils, with maybe a titch of slickum to keep the C.O.R.E. uniform. Oddly, that's exactly the same thing needed to hold groups together for extremely hot weather and hot barrels, with a big exception being a sodium soap matrix or similar coarse metal salt is needed to control oil and melted wax flow at high pressure, high velocity, and very high temperatures.
 

Chris

Well-Known Member
Hoping to extreme cold test several lubes such as you guys have invented and found worthy and compare them to appropriate commercial lubes. I think there are many who will not make their own lubes but would like to see how the commercial stack up, that alone may make this worthwhile.

On the one hand, I prefer not to re-test lubes that have been adequately trialed by Pete and you guys, on the other hand I don't want to embark on a lube invention expedition simultaneous to a substantial cold weather testing program. I have a narrow window of extremely cold weather and need to be loaded up and organized... and will need to snowshoe into the range.

I can see making MML, Lithi-Bee, and maybe 4Q as not too complex. I want to test plain old lithium from the tube at 15 below.

Again, anyone want to toss me a couple ounces of appropriate lube I will happily pay the postage. I will objectively report the results and post targets here, etc.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Be sure to post when you'll be heading to the range. I think Ian will be wanting to go with you. :eek:
 

Ian

Notorious member
Yeah, 22 this morning wasn't quite cold enough, my posterior is still somewhat attached. If I participate though I might have to borrow some of those things you guys keep calling "snow shoes", what ever those things are, pretty sure I don't have any. Closest I get to "snow" is those little flavored things in a paper cup from the parking lot vendors when it's 108° in the shade.
 

35 shooter

Well-Known Member
I let myself run out of Ben's Red and beeswax this year while testing BLL, or i'd send you some.
Ben's Red has already been tested to -17* anyway by Rally Hess per this thread.
I've run it on the other end to 105* with 112*or 115* heat index(there were 2 conflicting reports on the index that day) with results as usual....doesn't get much hotter here. Of course this is a cold weather thread, but i've been amazed at the extreme temp. range this lube has covered so far.

I've got to get some more beeswax, but i've become a tumble lube junky lately with the BLL lol. I'm hoping Yodogsandman has some cold weather reports on BLL this year.
 

Chris

Well-Known Member
Yeah, 22 this morning wasn't quite cold enough, my posterior is still somewhat attached. If I participate though I might have to borrow some of those things you guys keep calling "snow shoes", what ever those things are, pretty sure I don't have any. Closest I get to "snow" is those little flavored things in a paper cup from the parking lot vendors when it's 108° in the shade.

Ian, you should come! We have this great game called "touch your tongue to the rifle barrel". Some people play it once.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
Interesting that your experience is that consecutive shots in cold temps perform similar to those shot in warm weather. I would not have expected that result.

Actually Chris I should have been more clear here...... warm would be better said as 'warmer'. Not summer warm but warmer.... Lubes seem to fail in steps for me as I go colder so any testing method that lets your lube think warmer can be bogus.

A good lube formulation (several) has no problem down to 15 or 20 degrees for me. But I've learned the components 'cold' likes. Another step is around zero where several lubes fail (usually while learning) -5* below starts the weeding out process and by -15* or -20* below zero you will separate the "men from the boys" so to speak! This is why the fully saturated test is SO IMPORTANT! Otherwise you make brag up a lube that really isn't delivering due to the lube/barrel being or seeing a different temp than the thermometer.
I can't speak for store bought lubes. Most are formulated for convenience rather than performance. I know several have had above freezing (40*) problems with "Carnauba Red" I think Brad did.... Maybe he'll tell us.

The biggest problem is thinking "lube". For me this was a battle! I've worked in my career as a 'lubrication specialist"..... So I know what works no problem??? Nope! It makes you stumble over your untied shoe laces.... But you just keep taking the shoes on and off! Tying is too simple!

Keep it simple.... Don't let the bullet's high speed trick you! You can't use lubrication knowledge from machinery (or autos) to pick lube components.... Ask me how I know!

So what components work below zero for me? Let's talk a few. Watch anything EP (Extreme Pressure) grease or oil. A high "Timken Load" rated grease may play a number on C.O.R.E. Even the complex lithium soaps in them are trouble (sometimes) Mike's MML uses a cheap Walmart grease with a simple lithium thickener. Mike was wise.... All and all I don't want lithium soap for double digit below zero. Sodium soap (like our Ivory additions) will go way down! Past -20*..
polybutene.... Good for a while.... maybe -5* below.... guts shaky and fails in double digit minus temps. polybutene is the 'sticky' in chain bar oil, STP, and tacky greases. You car may like synthetic oil in the cold but bullets usually don't. Don't let thin, soft, high VI index, watery oils trick you either. Many fail in bitter cold (NOT AS A LUBE BUT IN C.O.R.E.) Ian's SL 68 I've tested well into the double digits below with good results.... It has a bunch of Ivory on board and SAE 140 gear oil! So go figure! Dexron III ATF is too slick and messes with C.O.R.E. in bitter cold... I don't use it in any lubes now.

I'm testing another 'item' for C.O.R.E. improvement.... but more on that later.

Your lithium grease alone may be interesting but may shoot 'slick' on you??

I can't stress a fully saturated test enough. Otherwise one may be just shooting for fun and bogus results... And shooting at -20*F below zero is not fun...

Pete
 
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JonB

Halcyon member
Ian, I think it got to 22º today, and sunny. I was running between the house and the unheated shed may times, just wearing a t-shirt (and pants:rolleyes:). Very nice weather for MN in Dec.

Chris,
I sent the SL68B to you today. It's a small sample, enough for a bit of testing. I flattened it, to go into a regular 1st class envelope for a "stamp and a half". So it won't look like much, but if you aren't lubing collar buttons, you will have enough to lube and test many bullets. I'm due to have another lube making day...I have a caster friend local to me that wants to watch/help/learn the SL68B making process.
 

Chris

Well-Known Member
Ian, I think it got to 22º today, and sunny. I was running between the house and the unheated shed may times, just wearing a t-shirt (and pants:rolleyes:). Very nice weather for MN in Dec.

Chris,
I sent the SL68B to you today. It's a small sample, enough for a bit of testing. I flattened it, to go into a regular 1st class envelope for a "stamp and a half". So it won't look like much, but if you aren't lubing collar buttons, you will have enough to lube and test many bullets. I'm due to have another lube making day...I have a caster friend local to me that wants to watch/help/learn the SL68B making process.

Thanks, JonB. I will put it to good use. Really appreciate your assistance.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Chris, when we started out on this "thing" together we all had been playing on our own for a while and sort of had our own ideas/requirements in mind. I even started a thread one time to poll as many people as possible on a "world standard" test of bullet lube. We came to a consensus on a routine pretty easily for anything from about 20° to 120, for any pressure or velocity. That was two, ten-shot groups fired in five minutes or so each with a cooldown to ambient in-between, repeated again no sooner than 24 hours later and preferably a week. Then repeat the same routine of 40 shots in the warmest temperatures expected, the lowest, and somewhere in-between. In tandem, if possible, perform the test with a low-pressure handgun, medium-pressure mid-bore, and high-pressure mid to small bore. All well and good, then Pete comes along and discovers that our test protocol goes completely down the drain in REALLY cold weather, so he had to invent one of his own which I consider it's own "world standard" until such time as lube technology makes something that will hold POI from minus 20 to warm barrel or even hot barrel another 40 degrees colder than our "normal" test protocol and still will shoot well in extreme heat. As far as I know we haven't come up with a recipe yet that will hold a tight rapid-fire group in sub-zero weather with a normalized rifle and ammunition. It's enough of a job just to get all the first shots to hang together at that temperature. Personally, I'd like to see some rapid-fire strings with various, known-good lubes and load combinations below zero to see how far we have to go, so feel free to invent your own testing protocols for this, but keep what Pete has written in mind as you do.

I doubt you want all the nitty-gritty theory and condensed "learnings" from all our experiments, but if you do, keep reading. It took me a couple years of earnest compounding and testing before I learned to quit thinking of bullet lube as a "lubricant". It simply isn't. In fact, bullet lube's function is a tribological paradox.

The only reason we get away with various oils in our lube is that they plasticize the waxes and make them the correct starting viscosity, not because of their individual film lubrication attributes as actual oils. So those oils fool us in what they're doing, and if we know anything about machinery lubrication we know that super-slick, EP esters and PAO synthetics will maintain film strength and flow through a much wider temperature range than ordinary dinosaur squeezings so we turn to those super-lubes to handle both extremes of bullet lubrication temperature. WRONG. Think about gilding metal jackets (and the research into alloys between the two world wars to minimize barrel fouling) and also the various epoxy bullet coatings and even paper jackets to see what is really required of our waxy "lube".

All, really, that is required of a bullet lube is that it keep the bullet-to-barrel seal patched up from zero to maximum bullet speed, and itself not alter the friction characteristics of the bore in any shooting condition we encounter, even after being mixed with powder by-products such as graphite and carbon or moisture either liquid or frozen. Sound simple? BUT wait, there's more to it for it to have those simple properties. The lube has to actually liquify at the same rate as the bullet accelerates (microseconds per foot) and it has to provide the same surface friction coating in the bore whether in liquid state or frozen solid. Lube can't absorb heat fast enough in that time frame to change phase, so it must instead be pressure-activated, and that is done with a balance of wax chain forms and straight-chain oils. With a good bit of difficulty I've managed to make several different non-melting lubes and they all failed miserably even at pistol velocities. If the lube doesn't flow correctly at high speed, it literally becomes an adhesive in the barrel. Plenty of lubes work consistently after the first shot or two knocks the chill out of the barrel steel and softens the cold residue, but few manage to provide the same resistance to the bullet hot or cold.

What seems to be working the best overall, hot or cold, is to start with a blend of branch-chain, micro-crystalline, long-molecule waxes (60-80 molecule chain length), add in some straight-chain paraffin waxes, and blend that up with some beeswax to attempt a full-spectrum wax. A petroleum wax can do this, such as the infamous Unobtainium Navy wax some of us have tried. That wax has both straight and branched chains going from single digits to something over 100 molecules if I remember correctly, and thus has an extremely long and predictable "mush phase" from solid to liquid. Then there needs to be a middle modifier (usually an oil or fat of some kind) to plasticize it to the correct starting viscosity, which turns out is pretty soft if you want to use it at low speed or low pressure. That's it for just below freezing to about 90°. If you want to go hotter, you'll need some sodium soap to control the flow at the end of the barrel and not get blow-out past the relax point of the bullet. If you want high velocity, you'll also need to add a tiny bit of high-temperature, low-viscosity, EP wetting agent like Castor oil or polyolester oil. Same for the extreme cold as far as I understand, but I don't believe the soap is really necessary in extreme cold, the point of my testing was to see if the soap could TOLERATE cold successfully and thus could be left in as part of a true, all purpose, anytime, anywhere, anytemperature, anygun bullet lube.

Getting the balance of the waxes correct not only lets the lube pressure-liquify and speed-liquify to match bullet speed in the barrel, but also gives consistent bore friction. Paraffin is slippery when frozen (room temperature frozen or frozen frozen), but actually fails as a lubricant and increases friction when liquid. Micro-crystalline waxes are the opposite, being very adhesive and cohesive when solid (frozen) but providing a lubricating film barrier when melted. This is why you have to have the properties of both in a good lube to balance friction characteristics throughout the temperature and phase changes. Having a pretty decent balance of solid vs. liquid friction properties in a barrel is also why ordinary bee spit is so good in most lube formulas, in case that one kept you up at night as it did me for a long time. Those attributes come to beeswax by virtue of the broad arrangement of various monoesters, diesters, and natural micro and macro wax strains which just happen to come pretty close to matching the highly dynamic needs of a speeding bullet.

Lithium soap grease has always bugged me. It fails in high heat due to loss of oil-retention properties when you need them the most ("goose chit syndrome"), and it fails in the cold because below 20°F the tight matrix really starts to resist flow. Go try to lube your ball joints with a grease gun at 15° ambient and you'll know what I mean. That means any lithium soap left in the barrel in the cold makes MORE friction until it is warmed. Since CORE is the name of the game, Lithium soap works against us and needs lots of other additives to extend its useful temperature range, which reminds me of a doctor prescribing three additional medications in addition to the one you really need just to control all the various and sundry side-effect. Several of us strove to isolate and test individual ingredients as much as possible to distill the ingredient list down to just those that did the most of what we needed with the fewest side-effects. Sodium soap works in barrels so hot they'll blister you, and also in extreme cold if Pete and Mike's testing is any indication. But sodium soap needs to be mixed with a wax, and gelled properly to work. Wax and soap matrix are symbiotic in a hard-working bullet lube, you can't have one without the other once you get into rifle velocities and uncomfortable temperatures.

Oh, and leading. Leading is and always has been the least of our problems. If you get leading you have a pressure/alloy/bullet size problem, not a "lube" problem.

CORE is the whole deal. Make that consistency happen in the bore all the time with a lube that seals the bullet in the bore for the whole trip and flings off at the muzzle and you've got it licked. Hopefully this will give you an idea of how some of us got where we are in our current and on-going quests, and maybe what to look for in a good lube recipe.

OK, so blah blah blah theory, etc. Chris wants samples. You can cover a LOT of bases with JonB's SL-68B. That lube pretty much represents the sum total of my own testing, experience, and understanding, and if anyone wants to know what MY "Extreme Lube" recommendation is, as of right now that is it. But this is an extreme COLD test thread, and really the only reason I even posted here having no experience with such is that I know the soap lubes that Starmetal and I developed have reasonably withstood Pete's tests.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I am starting to think that we used too much castor oil. When we were adding a teaspoon we should ahve been adding 1 ml or so, 1/5 teaspoon. Castor oil is such a strong lubricant that we don't need much at all to do the job.

Chris, this all started for me when I was using Carnuba red and got cold weather flyers in my 32-20. Once the barrel was warmed by a few shots it was fine. Let the barrel cool and the next few were out of the group, like 2" at 50 yards. I thought it was the lube on the bullets causing the issue, now I look back and realize it was the residue in the bore that got stiff and wreaked havoc on groups.

Leading is the easiest thing to stop. Accuracy is the real tough part.
I agree with Ian. A mix of theee, or more, waxes and a little soap for high temp stability. Lubrication is rarely really needed.
 

JonB

Halcyon member
I vaguely recall a discussion about exactly how much castor oil I should use, because it seems I was told 1-2 tsp. Since I'm not a lube scientist, I opted for a amount inbetween that... 1/2 TBLsp. which is approximately 5% of the total contents in that recipe.

Brad, I agree with your logic, but I am not in a good place where I want to change my recipe...unless it clearly fails at a cold temp.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
remember castor oil will make it's way through an engine and come out the other side carrying carbon chains and other stuff with it. [it's great at controlling polybutene build up in a 2 stroke engine]
look at the old flyers and guys that raced motor bikes when they were using castor oil in the gas mix.
you'll see them and anything behind the exhaust pipe coated in the stuff.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
So are you saying that is a good thing or a bad thing?
I think castor oil has a place, imjustnthink it needs to be investigated at lower concentrations.
Think of 666-1. Use 6 ounces of each wax, one ounce of Ivory, and add 1 ml of castor oil.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
I like castor oil..... But maybe it is a love/hate relationship! Lamar is right about it "going through an engine right out the exhaust". I think lube formulas with Castor do the same thing from our barrel. These days, I think Felix Lube has too much Castor.... It gave me purging and cold start problems in the cold. I modified it to "Polybutene Felix" early on by using chain bar oil in lieu of the mineral oil in the formula. It was a pretty good lube down to about -5* below and had 'minute of deer' cold start abilities.... I prefer 'minute of grouse eye' in this category. If I do use castor it is 2% by weight max.

I tried Jojoba Oil.... (real good V.I. qualities) I don't use it now because of what I call 'subtle fliers'. These 'subtle fliers' are a hint to C.O.R.E. and a valuable tool usually not watched...... or just blamed on a bad casting in our bullet.

I like polyolester oils.... I know it's a synthetic! And dangerous! Only in the sense of using too much. I like the Motul 2T 2 stroke oil the best for POE additions. It contains Sulfonates however.... I didn't like this for a while....... I don't think Ian likes Sulfonates either.... But I read up on them from my Alma Mater Chevron, actually the chemical end Oronite. I'm somewhat dated due to high mileage but it seems it is used as a detergent for metallic salts even! Even handles Calcium salts!
I have two guns I do a particular test with. One a Marlin barrel with heavy machine marks and an old Savage Model 23 with a couple small pits 1/2" in from the muzzle... Don't sell it short though, because it can do 'minute of grouse eye'.... repeatably!
So I watch these areas under 10 power. The POE added cleans these areas out while no POE leaves them dirty..... Humm??? Is this good for C.O.R.E.???? Not sure..... More testing! Not being able to analyze C.O.R.E. is our 'Achilles Heel' to an "Extreme Lube" Guesswork is a slow process!

Pete
 

Eutectic

Active Member
Brad.... 666-1 with 2% Motul 2T ester is on my 'cold test' list. My gut tells me Castor Oil will fail in double digit minus temps.... But maybe not? I like Castor Oil in moderation like I said above.

Pete
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I like the POE oils for the cleaning effect too. Like castor oil they need to be used in small amounts. I am more and more thinking we need to look at something along the lines of .5-1% castor oil and maybe 1/2 that much Ester oil.

Pete, have you ever tried castor wax? I think it may give us some of the castor oil lubricity while not being as prone to leaving a film. I made a batch of Felix lube with it but haven't given it a fair shake. Yet

I still need to give cetyl esters a good look. They go liquid very fast under pressure and temp. Might be a good thing for CORE?
 

Eutectic

Active Member
Pete, have you ever tried castor wax? I think it may give us some of the castor oil lubricity while not being as prone to leaving a film. I made a batch of Felix lube with it but haven't given it a fair shake. Yet

Haven't tried Castor Wax Brad..... But it might be interesting. Sometimes doing something on a 'whim' works for the good! You need to test that Felix mix and let us know...

The last 'Felix' I made I subbed Dexron III (as recommended) for the mineral oil. Mistake! I've thinned some of it lately with some old Delo diesel oil and it makes a good lube for pushing bullets through a Lee sizer. I'll never run out of it......

Pete
 

Ian

Notorious member
Re: Sulfonates. My only experience was with the calcium sulfonate grease gellant used in Mobil Centaur Moly grease (bought a case of it) and it was absolutely horrible as a lube ingredient. Might have been the heavy PAO syn oil in it though. I did get some really nasty fouling either from the Ca Sulfonate, the moly compounds, the graphite compounds, or some combination of the three. I have no beef with a little sulfonate in the two-stroke oil, in fact that might explain why if you use Ester (Red Line and Maxima K2 in particular) in a lube and shoot it in a barrel seasoned with ANY kind of Alox product (Alox, as a fractional distillation residue, contains a concentration of naturally-occurring calcium soaps) you immediately get a black tar mess in the bore. The esters pull out all that embedded calcium/Alox residue from the barrel steel. Interesting stuff. Everyone knows my distaste for Alox on many levels, the main reason is the gradual accumulation of Ca scum in the bore, just like hard water/soap scum reactions that make scaly residue on bathtubs and shower glass.

Re: Castor oil. This is a hot weather and high-velocity (antimony wash reducing) additive to me. Felix lube was the first lube I found that could tolerate extreme heat punishment without losing groups. You have to polymerize it with heat to keep it from weeping out of the lube, and perhaps the process of making the molecules link up changes the properties enough that it doesn't work well in the cold? In the soap lubes, the castor is exposed to very high temperatures, but only briefly, so no doubt the polymerization is less/different and may explain why SL-68.1 and Starmetal lube (made the same way) could tolerate extreme cold better than Felix lube. Also, the mineral oil in Felix lube could be the cold issue.

Re: Hydrogenated castor oil (castor wax). I've wanted to try this for a long time. The hydrogenation should stabilize the oil and keep it from weeping, yet preserve the heat-seeking, wetting properties that make it so valuable as a high-temp, high-speed additive. It must MIGHT prove to be useful in the extreme cold. PETE and CHRIS, please look into trying this at some point, it's been a question mark for a long time.

Re: Jon and castor oil recommendation. I probably had you add too much. I put too much in a lot of my lube and that was an error. 2% is all you need, any time, anywhere.