UNDER size sizing dies.

My reasoning for needing is I believe the same as my friends. That unknown brass that either gets mixed in with known or is part of a new batch of "once fired" ya just bought/ picked up.
I inherited a goodly amount of supah brass. A year or so back when a good friend passed who was a super nut. We sold iff the firearms but the reloading stuff went mostly untouched so it came to me. Im proud to have bought one of his pistols in super a caliber I have always wanted but never nought myself. Having "been there" when he built this one it was kinda special for me. I even got him the barrel thru some Contacts I had at Colts.
Anyhow the brass is from unknown sources and as I was loading some I had an annoying amount that sized normally, did not appear bulged or deformed but was all +P 38 AUTO and would not fit the gauge or barrel properly. Its enough that it warrants saving.
My friend says "something ever super owner needs have".
I mentioned I dont like the .40 bulge buster. Reasoning is most folks dont really know what they speak of. Im of coarse speaking to "glock smiles". These cases with a smile are GARBAGE. (Speaking with the Choir here) The brass is fatigued past useable! Many early Glock bbls had overly generous chambers coupled with the higher pressure they was pretty fat and some dies didnt size them down completely resulting is feeding issues with some firearms. But folks feel they can just run a "smiled case" thru and as if by magic, its good! This isnt that for me. None of the super brass I have had issue even looks overly fat!! Of coarse it measures "fat"!


@ 25$ I have one coming.

CW

CWLONGSHOT said:

My reasoning for needing is I believe the same as my friends. That unknown brass that either gets mixed in with known or is part of a new batch of "once fired" ya just bought/ picked up.
I inherited a goodly amount of supah brass. A year or so back when a good friend passed who was a super nut. We sold iff the firearms but the reloading stuff went mostly untouched so it came to me. Im proud to have bought one of his pistols in super a caliber I have always wanted but never nought myself. Having "been there" when he built this one it was kinda special for me. I even got him the barrel thru some Contacts I had at Colts.
Anyhow the brass is from unknown sources and as I was loading some I had an annoying amount that sized normally, did not appear bulged or deformed but was all +P 38 AUTO and would not fit the gauge or barrel properly. Its enough that it warrants saving.
My friend says "something ever super owner needs have".
I mentioned I dont like the .40 bulge buster. Reasoning is most folks dont really know what they speak of. Im of coarse speaking to "glock smiles". These cases with a smile are GARBAGE. (Speaking with the Choir here) The brass is fatigued past useable! Many early Glock bbls had overly generous chambers coupled with the higher pressure they was pretty fat and some dies didnt size them down completely resulting is feeding issues with some firearms. But folks feel they can just run a "smiled case" thru and as if by magic, its good! This isnt that for me. None of the super brass I have had issue even looks overly fat!! Of coarse it measures "fat"!


@ 25$ I have one coming.

CW

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Hey, its worth a shot - no pun intended lol....

Yep smiled and fish belly goes away however should I run into several rifle cases , I had an 06' that almost pushed me to the SB die , again I would probably just go ahead and buy the whole set for 9,40,45 . I had a bunch of my last bulk of 45 ACP I ran through a gutted Lee FCD because it wouldn't chamber in clips but single loaded ok . Pushed through they surged just above the groove and on the rim . They free plunked afterwards .

Bisley said:

CZ -
I had a set of steel dies in .38 Special many years ago, and I used to clean them like my revolver cylinders after each use. Seldom a problem. When the dies scratched cases, I would run a strip of crocus or emery cloth or 400 grit sandpaper (1.5 inches wide) over a pair of long handled tweezers, run them into the die, (tight fit) and turn the die body back and forth in my hand several times before cleaning with a swab and Hoppes #9. The gun rag "Notsuppostas" would have a fit, I suppose, and admonish me for creating outsized cases. Never had a problem in my Colt Officer's Model Match. Wish I still had those dies...

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RCBS steel 38 Spl, dies are common on Ebay with orphan sizing dies being available often as well. I am something of a steel sizer nut and have four sets of 50's and mid-60s RCBS 38 Special dies as well as a couple of orphan sizing dies. No they are not for sale. Note: RCBS began marking their dies with a letter/date code in 1949 with the letter "A". 1950 was letter "B" and so forth. Easy to determine the age of older dies.

hrpenley said:

Well if you don't have to jam it down the barrel and when you pull the trigger something comes flying out the end and no where else and lands pretty much where you want it to, doesn't really matter so much how you get there. If it works for you don't fix it, if not probably someone here that can put you on the road to fixing it.

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That is a pretty loosey goosey standard. I require more of my ammunition. I want it to produce as much accuracy as the firearm permits, not how well I can shoot.

I'm using an RCBS carbide sizer for .44mag, had to break down some Loaded Rounds. A 250gr N.O.E. #TL432-249-RF seated and roll crimped in a starline case. Used a Lyman M-Die expander. Notice that the bullet "bulged" the case slightly.
It took 5 Wracks with a Inertia hammer to get the .431Dia bullet out of the case. Blasted cheap-butt chinese digital scale. sure went belly up at the wrong time.
Size Smaller ? NOT Me. I'd like to see one that measures two thousands larger too. Like the old steel sizers do.

I have a set of .44WCF from the early 1960's, they are undersized and just the thing for loading rifle rounds in a tubular magazine. But that is it.
Would love to find a set like that for .38WCF.

I definitely got lucky with the 38/357 T/C size die. I did all right with the RCBS 32 S&W Long T/C sizer as well--it sizes my 32 SWL, 32 H&RM, and 327 Federal brass to a reasonable .336", and a Hornady TN sizer die for 32 ACP finishes those at .335".

I reread this post a bit more carefully.
CW has a valid point about Glock "smiley's". I have a G23 from the first year of Production.
While I've never had a case rupture, I brought a Wolf bbl when they very first came out. So did My loading Partner at the time. We interchanged ammo with no problems. He deprimed, sized and primed the .40S&W cases. I charged, seated bullets and Taper Crimped them.
After He Passed 5yrs ago I discovered He had been using a REDDING Sizing system on them. A much better system the cheap Lee bulge buster.

I'm not bulge busting My .40 or .45 cartridges fired in
My Glocks, but I'm also shoot them in Wolf Relacement bbl's.
My Daughter shoots a Ruger SR40 and I shoot the .45's in 3 different 1911's and a Ruger Convertible.
No problems yet.

Knock on Wood.

Bulge buster questions:
If a Glock bulged case is run through a bulge buster, why wouldn't it be safe to use it in a barrel with a fully supported chamber?

Is not the bulge and its subsequent removal on the same order as a case mouth being expanded on firing then resized?

I really haven't puzzled that out, but you make a good point Michael.

Gen 3 Glock 40 S&W and 10mm barrels have more case-head support than did earlier variants. That support is not as substantial as that found in aftermarket barrels, but head support is better than it had been. In 40 S&W (W-W brass), my carry loads run 180 grain jacketed bullets at about 915-920 FPS (G-23) and 945-955 FPS from the 4.4" G-22. These carry loads and my handloads that duplicate them (180 grain HAP atop 4.7 grains of WW-231) do not "Glock" the brass. I don't get creative with 40 S&W loading, and there is about 100-125 FPS of velocity left on the table if you care to chase it. I don't. I have not run castings in the Glock OEM barrels (yet), and likely won't.

10mm is a bit different story. My two (Gen 3 G-20SF and G-29SF) do not 'Glock" their brass at "FBI Lite" levels (180 grainers at 1030 FPS) or at what I call the "Consensus 10mm Load" by all the makers (180 grain bullets @ 1125 FPS). Proceeding to Next Level stuff--Winchester Silvertips (175 STHP @ 1250-1275 FPS) both pistols show just a slight hint of subtle swelling--about .001"-.0015" more diametric expansion in the ST loads than with 1125 FPS loads, over about 1/4 of its head circumference 1/4" above the rim. Running them through the RCBS T/C expander, I cannot discern a feel difference between the 2 classes of fired cases. (n = 25 cases each class). THIS IS AS MUCH PRESSURE EXPANSION AS I CARE TO RESIZE. I suspect that Norma-level loads (200 grain bullets @ 1200 FPS) or some of the boutique/esoteric loads out there that run past these pressure levels would render the brass swollen to the point I would distrust it as a containment vessel after work-hardening (= weakening in my book) of those swollen areas. I don't want 32K-33K PSI getting freed up 14-18 inches from my eyes and face, thank you very much.

My conclusions--if you plan to 1) run castings in a Glock 40 or 10mm and/or 2) run higher-end load levels as a matter of practice, an aftermarket barrel is a good idea. Castings run great in Glock 45 ACP barrels' 8-lobe OEM rifling, at either .452" or .454" sizing. The 6-sided barrels in the Glock 40 and 10mm in company with almost the twice the pressure gradients of 45 ACP might not get along as well with poured bullets. I've heard arguments on both sides of that question, and don't want to weigh in without personal experience.

ETA--Michael, I am leery of repeated working of swollen brass case head areas. Think "copper wire" in this context--bend it back and forth repeatedly and it will weaken and break. Most cartridge brasses are 70% Cu/30% Zn. Murphy's Law gets no plea bargains, and just sure as Sheol that once/twice/thrice-worked 1/4 of the case head will overlie the unsupported chamber area and create the now-classic "Glock kB". I believe that to be the cause of these mishaps, and even with the minimal expansion I spoke of with my ST-level brass, I still toss those cases after their 3rd firing. I CAUTION YOU--THIS IS MY REGIMEN, AND I DO NOT RECOMMEND IT. AN AFTERMARKET BARREL IS THE BEST SOLUTION TO THESE ISSUES. I'm rolling the bones a bit with these expanded-base cases, a calculated risk that hasn't bitten me. Yet. Primer pockets stay nice and snug throughout, FWIW.

Thank you, Allen.
If I were to reload, for my carry Gen 3 Glock 27, it would be with 180-grain plated bullets using cast load data. I don't envision casting, but if that were to change an after-market barrel would be purchased.

A gun that interests me very much, and for no particular reason, is Ruger's .40 S&W PC Carbine, and for that I'd definitely cast a truncated-cone 180-grainer. I have two Glock 15-round magazines (thank you, Judge Benitez!!) that would really like a playmate.

Edits made

I never loaded for a Glock 10mm, did for a S&W 1006. Tried to duplicate the Norma 200gr load.
Shot up 240rds of Norma 200gr factory loads to get the brass. In my Colt Delta Elite. After those 240rds you could shake the pistol like an old G.I. 1911 and hear it rattle.
Sold it off and gave my Buddy that had the M1006 the brass.

Those Wolf bbl's with supported chambers make the Glocks reloadable.

My understanding is the case head/web is deliberately work hardened during the last few forming steps while the upper body and "neck" receive annealings as this area is designed to stretch to obturate the chamber whereas the web is not. This is true of short auto brass as well as Iong rifle and revolver brass.

The work-hardened web/head is prone to cracking when deformed beyond its design limits, particularly if worked BACK into it's reloadable form and fired again.

Norma rifle cases have 7 different anneal zones.
harder to softer from head to case mouth.

Norma and Lapua brass rules!!

I have 60 Norma .270 Win cases from 1974. I have annealed them 3 times and reamed them twice. Full-Length sized them twice. They have been shot only in My REM 700BDL. Neck-Sized using a Lyman 310 Tong Tool.

They are on their 17th reloading. Full power loads using a MAX Charge of IMR4350 under a Sierra 130gr SPBT. Set off by a FED 210 primer.
Haven't lost a single case yet.

But then when Norma brought out their .38Spl MAGNUM Load in the late 1970's, I had 2 case head separations on first firing in my M19.

Charles Graff said:

That is a pretty loosey goosey standard. I require more of my ammunition. I want it to produce as much accuracy as the firearm permits, not how well I can shoot.

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As do I, which is why I go the extra mile, sometimes I will use a router bit and jig to clean the base of my cast and shave all of them to correct and standard weight, I weight every powder charge, keep my tolerances down to +.001, -.000, mix every batch of alloy for the pressures I am shooting, gauge check every round and drop test a few random out of every box I make. I have found it is easier to encourage others to take the extra steps than to chastise them for shortcomings. If something works for you and are happy then don't fix it, It doesn't mean you are doing it wrong but it could maybe be done better, if you want to..... Most guys in this hobby do want to make thier ammo better but there is nothing that shuts down a person faster than outright saying "your wrong- you should be doing that this way or that way" unless of course you happen to know they are on the edge of hurting themselves or someone around them. The last thing I want to do is discourage someone and prevent them from asking further questions.

Walks said:

I never loaded for a Glock 10mm, did for a S&W 1006. Tried to duplicate the Norma 200gr load.
Shot up 240rds of Norma 200gr factory loads to get the brass. In my Colt Delta Elite. After those 240rds you could shake the pistol like an old G.I. 1911 and hear it rattle.
Sold it off and gave my Buddy that had the M1006 the brass.

Those Wolf bbl's with supported chambers make the Glocks reloadable.

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Norma-level loads are likely A Bridge Too Far for 1911-series pistols. Those were the loads that produced frame cracks between slide rail and slide stop holes in un-buffered 1911s. I did run Norma-level loads in the S&W 10XX-series pistols I had, and those loads presented no issues at all in those S&W tanks. I don't run them in my Glocks, and won't. I think the Winchester Silvertip load levels are about as high as should ever be run in the Colts or the Glocks, and those Consensus Loads (180s @ 1125 FPS) might be the best load out there for general usage. They offer about 200 FPS more velocity than the typical 40 S&W does with 180 grain bullets, and no one complains about the 40 S&W's fight-stopping ability--it is on par with the 45 ACP, IME. Some of us just want more of a good thing, and the 10mm enables that. I'll say this--the STHP 10mms are a righteous handful in a Glock 29. FUN--but I'm a fair defensive shooter, and that combination is on the upper end of my rapid-fire controllability spectrum. The Pearce finger-hook base plates for the Glock 29 mags make control a bit more secure.

Anyway--with the 10mm you can tune the loadings to suit your own compression ratio using factory ammo. I gotta say......in the desert back-country a Glock 20 filled with 16 STHP loads is a comforting presence, as are its two filled spare mags that go along for the ride. Mountain lion and meth monster medicine.

I shoot a fair amount of 10mm too. This time of year I make a edc switch to my G29 carrying ST ammo. Its been watered down a bit from years ago. I also hord a small supply from the days when ya could by silver tips for loading at home. Loaded with Blue Dot from my 6" G20 KKM barrel these are just shy of 1400 fps. ZERO NO NADA case head exp to show high pressures. Same load in FACTORY barrel is just fine too! Its a tremendous loading on whitetails and the one hog they where used on. I have yet to recover one. Last buck was smallish 135/140#. Bullet entered in FRONT of shoulder @ base of neck. Angled back taking out bottom of spine and exiting in a golf all hole behind shoulder off side center of the lungs. Bang flop with some thrashing. The hog was also Smaller 100 ish and hit dead broad side just above a "heart" shot. He ran about 25/30 straight into a tree!! Falling over with a couple squeals. I very much liked these older ST bullets. I switched to a WFN 200 GC bullet.

Yes, 100% the hot loads dont get shot in my Deltas!!! But zero issues in the G29,G20 or now the G40 I grabbed last year.

I also have a 220g cast bullet I buy cast in 20:1 and weighing in closer to 230g. GT Bullets is the maker. I dont shoot enough to really warrant the mold. But probably would buy the mold for myself one day.
I load it also with Bluedot and this load breaks 1000 in the G29 and breaks 1150 in the 6" KKM!!! Again zero appreciable case head expansion. Also shoots very well. This bullet opens ALMOST to base of HP in wet papers @ 15-20 yards when started @ 1100 fps. Still good expansion down to 850 fps. @ 1100 it sometimes exited the box!!! With fresh papers it can be caught just before exiting always intact.

Did allot of shooting with the 200 XTP as well. It preforms well. Gold dots dont do well when Pushed. But excellent at top 40 And neutered 10mm velocities.

cw

Never understood any auto loader for walking off the concrete.
Revolver makes more sense to me.

But whatever floats your boat.