HAVE I GOT MY SIZE NEEDED RIGHT ?

orgoniun

Member
I recovered a round shot thru my gun from a test load in very good shape and measured it at .309 groves and .307 lands so i'm thinking i need to size to .311 for fit with the new saeco 315 mold that should be here today. I have a lee .309 sizer i can open up to .311 or would it be better to purchase a lee .310 and open that to .311 or only to .310 or .3105 ?

Your thought's please on this, Steve
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I would try starting at .310 and see what happens. Then try .311 and see what happens. No matter what I would suggest having a .309, 310, and .311 sizer on hand.
 

Ian

Notorious member
A good rule of thumb is to size to .0005 smaller than throat entrance diameter. Sometimes you need to go larger than that, but not often. Land and groove dimensions are a waste of time to even consider.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Land and groove dimensions are a waste of time to even consider.

Been my experience that is true many times but not always. My 1960's Win 30-30 is a perfect example, didn't get it to shoot until I slugged the bore. It has a nice bore from one end to the other evidenced by the bore scope plus no loose or tight spots judging by feel bore slugging or from a snug patch. I was sizing at .310" and most bullets weren't sized with that die, lubed & check seated is all. The catch was the .310" groove diameter and I didn't have a mold that cast that large. I had Erik open up driving bands on a couple of molds and bought a couple of molds that cast large enough. Decent shooter now that bullets actually do fill the bore.

Just goes to show that with most things there just isn't an across the board one size fits all answer to a lot of things.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
No one size fits all is why I would want the multiple sizes on hand. Let the gun decide.
Lots of things we can do to reduce the choice to a couple but you never know for certain until the gun speaks.
 

orgoniun

Member
No one size fits all is why I would want the multiple sizes on hand. Let the gun decide.
Lots of things we can do to reduce the choice to a couple but you never know for certain until the gun speaks.


OK so i should start at .309 and just keep working up till i find the best size for the gun
 

Ian

Notorious member
Been my experience that is true many times but not always. My 1960's Win 30-30 is a perfect example, didn't get it to shoot until I slugged the bore. It has a nice bore from one end to the other evidenced by the bore scope plus no loose or tight spots judging by feel bore slugging or from a snug patch. I was sizing at .310" and most bullets weren't sized with that die, lubed & check seated is all. The catch was the .310" groove diameter and I didn't have a mold that cast that large. I had Erik open up driving bands on a couple of molds and bought a couple of molds that cast large enough. Decent shooter now that bullets actually do fill the bore.

Just goes to show that with most things there just isn't an across the board one size fits all answer to a lot of things.



That's fine, Rick, there ARE multiple ways to do everything.....but maybe I'd better do more explaining of my point of view on this here. Bore slugs get you sorta kinda close and a chamber/throat cast gets you close to exact the first time with no guessing. I realize I didn't mention making a cast as the way one would determine throat entrance diameter, sorry about that, I'm so used to doing that myself and talking about it on the internet that I forgot to mention it specifically here. Chamber/throat casts work every time, bore slugs get you in the ballpark, at best. So I still maintain and recommend that the chamber/throat cast method of bullet fitment IS an "across the board one size fits all" answer to the question "what size bullet does my rifle need". I will remain pretty much committed to this point until someone can demonstrate to me a better, faster, more direct way to take ANY given rifle and in a few minutes know what bullet mould and sizing die need to be secured and not waste a bunch of time, money, and components trying to guess what will work "best". There are plenty enough variables to contend with to find a rifle's happy place without adding three or four bullet sizes and as many shapes to the equation. One might end up making adjustments later in the tuning process after basing initial bullet selection and sizing on a chamber/throat cast, but that will likely only be a minor point.

I don't know of any smokeless-powder cartridge rifle except possibly the M.C. Escher-esque throat of an NEF 38-55 (loaded chamber neck ID smaller than groove diameter) which cannot have its ideal (or nearly so) bullet band diameter determined by measuring the throat entrance of a simple chamber cast. I don't understand your example of your .30-30, because even with .310" groove, measuring the throat (or chamfer at the end of the chamber if it had none) of a chamber cast would have given you the correct sizing information anyway, plus some other useful stuff like what size the nose needed to be and what to expect for seating depth with the bullet design of your choice. Also, a chamber/throat cast would tell you how large of a bullet your rifle can safely fire without neck pinch. Measuring a barrel slug only tells you the smallest diameter of the barrel's dimensions, which are pretty much useless unless you're trying to ascertain a suspected issue with a barrel such as bulge, choke, reverse taper, etc. I'm not saying DON'T slug the barrel, I'm saying it is NOT the best way to select a bullet mould or sizer.

Going off the throat size as a basis to choose bullet body diameter gives you not only a good idea of what size to make the bullet's bands, but also will give the information needed to determine what sort of bullet nose shape will actually fit, and even more, what shape will likely perform well. Going off of only bore and groove dimensions, obtained from a bore slug, doesn't tell you anything about the throat and leaves the rest up to trial and error. You can't even rely on bore dimension for bullet nose diameter or length because the bore dimension of a slug driven through the barrel doesn't account for throat wear. The ONLY thing you can really tell from a barrel slug with regard to how large to size your bullets is *approximately* what your minimum threshold for leading due to undersized bullets will be.
 

Ben

Moderator
Staff member
Steve

Could the 309 / 307 numbers be an error ?
Can you tell us what you're using to take this measurement with ?

Most 30 cal. barrels are 308 / 300 or 309 / 301.

The 309 / 307 numbers would make the height of your rifling only .001".

Ben
 
Last edited:

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I would also be pretty cautious using a recovered slug to determine much of anything regarding bore dimensions. Doesn't take mch to lose .001 here and there on impact.

I'm just a guy who doesn't mnd trying a few sizes to see what happens. In general I would start at .310. Many times that works fine. Look at the results with .310 then decide of larger or smaller is warranted.
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
I have measured a number of recovered bullets that showed rifling all around. Never found one to be true, but others may have found some that did measure true.
 

quicksylver

Well-Known Member
I have measured a number of recovered bullets that showed rifling all around. Never found one to be true, but others may have found some that did measure true.


There you go ....I figure a recovered round is good for determining whether or not the bullet is skidding or there is gas cutting or how hard / soft the alloy is.

But I don't think it's of much use in determining the correct size need for the firearm.

If I had a "go to" dia. it would be .311
 

Doug

Member
Ian, assuming one did not chamber/throat cast, I've read that the rule of thumb is otherwise "whatever will chamber w/ a little resistance" provided it's your ogive or first driving band that's lightly engraving on the lands. (Weird thing is that I'm finding all the molds [except one that was custom designed] have noses under bore dia. even at the muzzle, wh/ seems to me to be woefully inadequate, especially considering that both our barrels are choked. Dunno if this part is off topic.)

edit: Sorry, just read this from you at a different post

"I was harping about the straight launch thing again because it keeps coming up that fitting a parallel nose to ride the lands and fitting parallel driving bands to be a light swage fit in groove diameter is the whole deal, and I consider it a monumental waste of time to even consider a bullet in those terms. That isn't "fit" at all, because such a bullet usually (not always, but almost so) is likely to never fit any part of the gun at all, at any point, and all the unsupported parts can easily become a mess before the bullet even makes it fully into the rifling. Fit, to me, means fit the bullet to the throat, following all curves and angles in such a way that it will self-align to dead-center shortly after launch within the small tolerances necessary to all fixed ammunition. The faster you go, the more important this becomes."

From your post here

http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/over-sized-nose-on-a-bore-rider.471/page-3

Sorry if it's beyond the scope here but it deserves a re-read IMHO.
 
Last edited:

Ian

Notorious member
Look at a scale drawing of a chamber and throat on a given rifle. Note that it is a series of decreasing cylinders and funnels from chamber neck down to bore/groove. Imagine making a bullet that will squeeze through that without getting crooked, bent, scrunched up, or parts shaved off....while being pushed by fire under rapidly increasing pressure. That is what you want.
 

Kevin Stenberg

Well-Known Member
Another good use for recovered bullets. Is to determine if you are using the proper alloy for how the bullet expands. For a hunting scenario.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Tend to agree with Brad for simplest resolution, keeping .309, .310 and .311 sizers
on hand for US 30 cal cartridges is very handy.

Start with .311, then .310, then .309 if you want to keep it simple. Try a known good
load like 10 gr Unique or 16 gr of 2400 with five of each size and you wlll likely
learn something.

Usually Mr. Target will tell which size is best for your gun. If there is no resolution,
then I would start paying close attention to throat dimensions. Just being lazy here.

Bill