Remingtons 360 Buckhammer

Jeff H

NW Ohio
....I know it is winter and people want to be out shooting but let CW and others be happy about this....

Double-like on that point, Tomme. I hadn't scrolled down far enough to see that part of your post before I posted.

I'm enjoying the thread and the various perspectives. If any of mine seemed as if I was beating Brian down, that is definitely not the intent.
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
I'm no expert on cartridge design. But it seems to me that we have pretty much produced and tried all the variations of caliber, case shape/size, etc., and what we have are a lot more calibers than we really need. At the end of the day, we have long range calibers, brush calibers, low recoil high velocity, high energy low velocity, and whatever other categories you want to come up with. I'm will to bet that there will be more than one caliber to meet the needs of that category. Then you have the trade-offs that come with the various calibers. Flat shooting, yet barrel eating. Kind to barrels, but higher recoil.

So, when somebody comes up with a new caliber that does something new, I'm skeptical. The 357 Max was mentioned above. Go back and look in the book of obsolete cartridges. I think you'll find that the .38 Ballard Extra Long looks suspiciously similar, just used BP, and an obsolete primer. We have a club member that built a Low Wall based upon the .357 Max and refers to it at his .38 Ballard Extra Long.

The whole point has been mentioned by others already. The goal is to sell guns. Make the same gun different and call it better or make a new caliber and call it better and the uniformed masses that populate the nation will all swallow the bait and put down their hard-earned cash to by a gun that will solve all their problems and make them the envy of deer camp. In reality, there is nothing new in this caliber or the various guns sold today. The only "advancements" (which some might argue are NOT) are plastic stocks, stainless barrels, stainless guns, plastic guns, the Glock trigger, lighted reticles, and red-dot sights. But really, the guns and the ammo have not changed. So, they have become a commodity, a very expensive commodity. But a commodity that one does not need to keep buying like other commodities. We wear cars, clothes and furniture out. But we rarely wear out a firearm. So, they need to generate new sales where the market has no need to buy more. They must generate a desire to buy more. Hence the .360 Buckgrabber.

Not sure what could be truly new in cartridges or firearms. Hmmmmmm......
  • Plastic cases, maybe? I still remember the Tround. That was a non-starter.
  • Moving all calibers to small rifle/pistol primers? I'd vote for that.
  • A total recoil reduction system?
  • A completely new type of propellant? Burns the same under all conditions. Need more power, add more propellant. Maybe you'd need a three kinds: Pistol, Rifle and Shotgun.
  • How about a bullet with a stick of propellant properly glued or otherwise fastened to the back and no primer. Ignition would be a high voltage spark so triggers would now be an electrical switch. No need to eject spent cases. Now more trigger and hammers required. Action would be solid and stronger as well as suited to RH or LH shooters. Just need an internal feeding mechanism.
  • Or instead of a stick of propellant, a gas bottle on the weapon with a highly flammable gas that gets injected behind a bullet and ignited by electric spark. Might not be a gas with that much energy right now. But that does not mean one will not be discovered/created.
But, if you do create a new and truly better way, then the old ways will become obsolete in time (aka muzzleloaders). Brass market will crash. Volume pricing for reloading components will go away. The entire reloading market will go away as you simply buy sticks and glue them to bullets or you buy a new bottle of gas. You could still cast bullets, which would be a good thing and stop everyone from trying to get me thrown off the site for suggesting this silliness. So, there is really no incentive to come up with something better, is there.

Yup, the goal is for the .360 to be the envy of every hunter out there. I can hear the conversations in the various diners in deer country.

Up here huntin'?
Yup.
Whatchya usin' this year?
.360 Buckhammer
Oh wow, they say that's the one to have.
Yup, best caliber in the woods these days. You huntin'?
Yup.
What you usin'?
.270
Oh yeah, my wife used to have one of those. Gave it to my 12-year-old daughter. Got the wife a Buckhammer... with pink camo stock.
Oh... ummm... uhhh ... so what'd you use before you got the Buckhammer?
A club.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
plastic cases are still kicking around.
even out here in the sticks i occasionally find some this and that laying around the range.
half brass-half plastic pistol cases, 223 brass/steel bottomed plastic cases and a few other oddities.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I ran the numbers on the Max, the .35 Remington, the 35/30-30 backwards and forwards. What I keep coming up with from a 20" barrel is you can't quite make 2200 fps with a 200-grain bullet and stay at 40KPSI or below with a case capacity less than 44 grains of water under the seated bullet. The .35 Remington just ALMOST makes 2200 with a 200-grain bullet, but it is just over a tenth longer than the Buckhammer and has a shoulder and slightly larger base and just about the same maximum pressure limitation as 30-30 and .35 30-30. If the Buckhammer has a stronger, thicker web and lower case walls, the capacity is further reduced and becomes almost a direct trade-off between pressure and volume yielding a null velocity increase as pressure is increased and volume is reduced.

CW, if you get a chance, would you pull a bullet from one of your dummy rounds and measure the water volume of a completely full case? I'm betting it comes in around 48 grains (Winchester brass will have about a grain more). That could give us a better idea of what the Buckhammer is working with pressure-wise and case-wise.

A 24" pressure barrel or rifle barrel looks like it can get the Buckhammer up to 2300 fps with a 200 grain bullet pretty easily, but the 20" is stucksies at about 2100 or a bit more.
 

Ian

Notorious member
hey Ian did you try it with a new blended powder nobody on the planet has yet?

Well,,,,,,,,,

I suppose a feller could blend two parts 748, three parts H335, two parts Ball-C, and one part H414 and come up with something. Oh, wait, Hodgdon already did: it's called "LeverEvolution". Drop the 748 and make it equal parts the others and you got "Superformance".
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
What is wrong with 2000 f/s? Wont kill whitetails? Not a eastern deer hunter, so don't really understand what the issue is here.
 

Ian

Notorious member
What is wrong with 2000 f/s? Wont kill whitetails? Not a eastern deer hunter, so don't really understand what the issue is here.

Just a mental exercise, that's all. We see claimed velocity and want to know how they pull it off when we know the limits of canister powders, the parent case, the case in question, the bullets in question, etc and it doesn't add up.

The factory-loaded Buckhammer ammunition might end up being self-depriming just like the 350 Legend, how convenient for handloaders!
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
..........

Up here huntin'?
Yup.
Whatchya usin' this year?
.360 Buckhammer
Oh wow, they say that's the one to have.
Yup, best caliber in the woods these days. You huntin'?
Yup.
What you usin'?
.270
Oh yeah, my wife used to have one of those. Gave it to my 12-year-old daughter. Got the wife a Buckhammer... with pink camo stock.
Oh... ummm... uhhh ... so what'd you use before you got the Buckhammer?
A club.

That actually happened to me between Thanksgiving and Christmas. I was at the neighbor's and we were getting ready to cut wood. His hired hand showed up, just coming in from the woods. Stowed a camo'd rifle in his truck and walked over to us.

I asked: "what are you shooting?"
Him: "450"
Me: "Cool. What rifle?"
Him: "450"
Me: "No, I mean what rifle are you shooting the 450 in."
Him: "oh, it's just a 450."
Me: "The RIFLE - is it a Ruger, Remington,...?"
Him: "naw, just a 450."

I am NOT making this up.
 

todd

Well-Known Member
oh no!!! i am an "old guy" too!!!:eek: i don't need or want a new caliber. heck, i'd be happy with the 7 Mauser and 175gr RN factory load. the last time i bought a "new" cartridge was about 8 or so years ago and that was the 20 Vartarg or the 500 Linebaugh? if you really want to get on me, i bought a Remington m14 in 30 Remington. oh, the 1891 Argentine Mauser in 7.65x53 is another one thats moving up on the charts, just you wait and see!!! that one is going to be a barn burner!!!:rofl:



i have a 35/30-30 with 200gr RCBS FNGC and 2400/tuft of dacron that goes 1726fps out of a 20" barrel and it has killed three deer so far. i guess i could take it up to 2000fps, but why? it still kills deer at the ranges i want (60 yards and under). i just recently bought a Contender 10" barrels in 30 and 357 Herrett. the 30 Herrett will be used this year for deer. next year, maybe the 357 Herrett will see use.

personally, i don't see the need for the 360BH, but someone does.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
heck i need one.
i'm just not dropping the coin to get one.
i don't see it doing anything my 375 win, 32 win, or 30-30 don't/can't already do.
it's a neat smooth looking little round, maybe if i can find a CVA single shot or something like that for 3-400 bucks, but [shrug] my 357 lever rifle is coming up behind it while staying @ 5K under the rifles capabilities.
 

todd

Well-Known Member
heck i need one.
i'm just not dropping the coin to get one.
i don't see it doing anything my 375 win, 32 win, or 30-30 don't/can't already do.
it's a neat smooth looking little round, maybe if i can find a CVA single shot or something like that for 3-400 bucks, but [shrug] my 357 lever rifle is coming up behind it while staying @ 5K under the rifles capabilities.

told ya!!!!!! :p
 

L Ross

Well-Known Member
I ran the numbers on the Max, the .35 Remington, the 35/30-30 backwards and forwards. What I keep coming up with from a 20" barrel is you can't quite make 2200 fps with a 200-grain bullet and stay at 40KPSI or below with a case capacity less than 44 grains of water under the seated bullet. The .35 Remington just ALMOST makes 2200 with a 200-grain bullet, but it is just over a tenth longer than the Buckhammer and has a shoulder and slightly larger base and just about the same maximum pressure limitation as 30-30 and .35 30-30. If the Buckhammer has a stronger, thicker web and lower case walls, the capacity is further reduced and becomes almost a direct trade-off between pressure and volume yielding a null velocity increase as pressure is increased and volume is reduced.

CW, if you get a chance, would you pull a bullet from one of your dummy rounds and measure the water volume of a completely full case? I'm betting it comes in around 48 grains (Winchester brass will have about a grain more). That could give us a better idea of what the Buckhammer is working with pressure-wise and case-wise.

A 24" pressure barrel or rifle barrel looks like it can get the Buckhammer up to 2300 fps with a 200 grain bullet pretty easily, but the 20" is stucksies at about 2100 or a bit more.
I remember chronographing Remington factory 200 grain .35 Remington's out of my brother's 600 or 660, whatever has a vent rib and we got 2,050 fps. He cared not at all, it worked.
 

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
I know that this is speculation about a new cartridge, and that’s exciting to be sure. But. I’m glad I don’t live in a State that requires you to jump through hoops to carry a rifle in the woods. Straight wall, 1.8 inches maximum, I do understand the why, but... the 100 plus year old cartridges like the 30-30, 32spl, 38-55, 30-40, 35 Rem, 45-70, on and on Work just fine. Is it that they work to good? I guess I understand it, but, and I keep saying “but”, makes me happy to be where I’m at at times.
Not a knock on other parts of the country because I’m also envious of being able to hunt critters that an old guy can drag out by himself rather than having to have winches, chainsaw, and axe to harvest your seasonal meat. Besides needing a empty 23 cubic foot freezer to accommodate the 2 days it takes 3 people to cut and process your meat.
I’m a loner so I don’t hunt here anymore. I guess the Remington ad sheet CW posted made me feel really dated, certainly from a different time. Going into most gun stores is depressing, no wood and deep blue steel.
Ok, I’m done whining, need more coffee.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
heck i need one.
i'm just not dropping the coin to get one.
i don't see it doing anything my 375 win, 32 win, or 30-30 don't/can't already do.
it's a neat smooth looking little round, maybe if i can find a CVA single shot or something like that for 3-400 bucks, but [shrug] my 357 lever rifle is coming up behind it while staying @ 5K under the rifles capabilities.

Still trying to objectively achieve/maintain a SMALL personal battery, much of my thought and comment regarding this is likely influenced heavily.

This is a personal objective, not meant to prove a point to anyone else of influence anyone else, because I enjoy the "thrill of the chase" yet, even though it only happens occasionally any more. The 375W/38-55 and this new round DO tempt me. If I sound like I'm contradicting myself every other post,... well, I probably am. This IS a cool cartridge concept, but I don't NEED it, but dang, man, it's cool, useful, fits a lot of holes I try to fill when making my personal decisions on what few cartridges will do the most for me.

Two things in particular influence me toward something like this: 1) that it would potentially "fit" the Contender, because I love the compactness and light weight of the platform, and 2) it fits the 1.8" rule, which doesn't even affect me. I'm not out to get every last psi/fps out of the Contender I can, as I prefer the milder cartridges - sometimes good enough is good enough. The LIMITATIONS, based on one's perspective won't make sense to everyone, but it adds a challenge-element to do more with less. Like mastering ways to get closer to your quarry in deference to mastering long-distance shooting, which is NOT meant to be a moral argument, but simply an alternate type of challenge.

My chosen main long-arm caliber is "35." I can shoot 38s, 357s and 357 Max on one platform/two barrels. I COULD do it with ONE barrel (the 'Max), but the vast majority of my shooting is with the 'Mag, and usually at 38 Spl-levels. BUT, I have the flexibility to do more if I want/need. I won't be shooting varmints at 400 yards, but that's a rare opportunity anyway. I'll try to get closer or wait for a day when the varmint slips up and gets closer. So, moulds, dies, powders, primers and cases, to a degree are pretty universal for me. There is bot economy and challenge in that.

I also keep a 30/30, because it fits the platform, is useful and an ubiquitous cartridge/case. The 375W/38-55 idea fits into this concept with similar considerations to the 35 caliber idea mentioned about. The 360BH would too IF the cases are not specialized to a degree that regular old 30/30 cases don't work - while still improving (if that is true) over the 357 Max. The 360BH could possibly expand the versatility of a limited range of components and tooling for me. So, yes, it's tempting.

Definitely not a NEED, because I have had my 357 Max barrel for 3 or 4 years now and haven't gotten around to shooting it yet. All my 'Max experience (still not extensive) was with a few H&Rs and it was all good. So, I'm not quite fixin' to "fall off t he wagon," regarding my small personal battery concept, but things like this do make me stop and take a closer look.

The best outcome (for me) would be that Remington ends up pulling a Winchester on it and it becomes a distinctly different brass. Speaking of which, while looking for 357 Max brass, several years ago, I e-mailed Starline and asked "c'mon, guys, what do you have against the 357 Max?"

Hunter Pilant sent me a nice reply, stating first nothing," and going on to explain that they would be SOON, because the 300 BLK was now economically fit to commit production to. BUT, they would not commit to a new brass unless they could get multiple cartridge designs from one new item of raw material, and that you can't make 357 Max brass from 357 Mag raw material, because the composition was different. Because the 300 BLK and the 'Max shared the same raw material, they could, and would make 357 Max brass. Sure enough, a month or so later, there it was. So, if the new 360BH is more like either 375W (higher pressure) or more like the 30/30, it is likely they would support the new cartridge IF it sold well enough. The difference in cost between 375W and 30/30 brass is significant, even though they outwardly appear (certain dimensions) similar.