Black Powder Fouling...

[oscarflytyer]

Black Powder Fouling... Shooting Elephant FFg in my 58 cal ML. Fouling (after 3 shots) seems 'bad.' However, I am a complete neewb to BP. Is old Elephant worse in the fouling department?

I have Goex in FFFg for the revolver, and as I recall, fouling is not so bad(again, based on maybe <50 rds fired)

I also have/recently purchased/not opened/shot - Schuetzen FFg (new purchase) for the 58. Is it cleaner/mpre user friendly?

Thanx

 

[Tomme boy]

What I do to control the fouling is when I seat a conical or ball, I have a wet patch over the jag and seat and wipe the bore at the same time. When I say wet not dripping but just enough so it is not running off the patch either. And increased charges seem to make it even worse. Some of the worst fouling I have had was with SWISS!. The one everyone brags about. But in my rifles it turns to cement after 2 shots if the charge is over 75grs.

And I weigh my powder not measure by volume. When ever I get a new bottle I measure out 70 grs and then dump it into my scale to weigh it. So far both have been really close. Within a couple of grs. But weighing I get it to about a 0.1gr variance like in a smokeless round. That has really shrunk my groups.

 

[fiver]

i like Scheutzen in my 50 cal ML.
it leaves a fine grey ash behind and doesn't get all thick, even just spit ballin or moose milkin the patches.
i was really surprised the first time i used it.

i haven't got round to tryin it with a naked lubed bullet though.

 

[Tomme boy]

I have 3lbs of Diamondback 3f left. It was really cheap. They were the next owners of Elephant Powder after they went out of business. I wish I bought more as it is really nice in all of my 50 cal side hammers. I have not tried it in any of my inlines yet but Swiss was a disaster in them. I think I just loaded them too hot.

Or my lube was not up to the task. It was a mix of bees wax, lanolin, and some very expensive olive oil I got yelled at for using.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

You can't stop the fouling. The best you can do, just keep it soft keep it manageable. This is done with lube. Lubrication in the grease grooves lubrication from a fillet wad. Clean up his hot soapy water and lots of it.

Why are 58 is worse than your 50 is simple physics, more powder equals more Fowling.

 

[300BLK]

I shot Blackpowder Cartridge Silhouette for years, and have shot muzzleloaders since I was a teen. All BP is not the same, and our different geographical areas make results different. Fouling will be different in the humid south vs the dry of desert regions. Different lubes will react differently, as will how tight the load was, and how much powder (too much/too little).

I shot the old, grey, irregular grained Elephant, the "improved Elephant" that was black, shiny and much more consistent in grain size, Diamondback (improved Elephant after the plant was moved) Goex, Kik, and Swiss. Elephant ignited, made smoke, lots of soft grey fouling and modest velocity. "Improved Elephant" and Diamondback made less fouling and more velocity, first lot of Kik circa 2000 had soft grains, and worked fine in frontstuffers, but a bit erratic in cartridges, Goex varied from lot to lot and variety (ffg vs Ctg) and Swiss.....made the most velocity and barrel heat, so also hard, dry fouling. BPCRS shooters liked the velocity of Swiss, but resorted to wiping the bore between shots to control fouling and heat. Those of us who shot prior to the introduction of Swiss (first imported by Goex after their 1996 plant explosion) almost always used a blowtube between shots to minimize movement in position, and introduce moisture and cooling to the bore. Combined with a good lube, this worked well for lots of folks.

I started with roundball guns and Goex, so learned to deal with fouling from that perspective. I found that when shooting Elephant and Diamondback that a kicker charge (38Spl case) of Goex fffg under the primary charge solved fouling issues. I used Swiss fffg in a cap-n-ball revolver and it worked fine there.

I've never found found Schuetzen for sale locally when I was in need, so no experience there.

 

[oscarflytyer]

I am shooting plain ball. Patch is a pre-bought round, guessing lightly lubed with bore butter (patch is yellow and damp). Maybe I need a better patch/lube - or maybe just learn to live with it.

Tomme - Pls clarify. When you seat the ball/projectile - you are (in my case) seating a patched ball, with a patch over the ball/b/n the ball and the jag?

 

[300BLK]

I am shooting plain ball. Patch is a pre-bought round, guessing lightly lubed with bore butter (patch is yellow and damp). Maybe I need a better patch/lube - or maybe just learn to live with it.

Tomme - Pls clarify. When you seat the ball/projectile - you are (in my case) seating a patched ball, with a patch over the ball/b/n the ball and the jag?

I swore off pre-lubed patches many years ago. I hunt with mink tallow (mink oil from Track Of The Wolf) because it combines with fouling to keep it soft and keeps rust at bay. It might not yield the best accuracy at the range, but doesn't freeze or dry out. Mr Flintlock, Shenandoah Valley lube, Lehigh Valley Lube (all based on "top oil" from the pulp wood industry) work well at the range for shooting all day long without cleaning. Avocado oil works as well as many vegetable oils, but some will solidify in the cold, and not all work as well as others.

I'm thinking that most rendered animal fats will work better than most vegetable oils.

 

[Winelover]

Nope, won't use holy black. Haven't for nearly 30 years, when I purchased my one and only pound of Goex. Never did finish that pound. Switched to Pyrodex "P", use 10% less, with less fouling. I have loaded and shot 20 rounds, in my .54 Renegade without having to swab the bore. Plus, unlike BP it's not considered an explosive. Won't store BP in my house.

Always used Oxyoke precut & pre-lubed round patches for my rifles. My SS ROA gets Oxyoke prelubed felt wads and one of their grease cookies, over about 35 grains of the Pyrodex " P" substitute. A 7 point was a bang flop with the Lee 220 conical.

No issues with rust in any of my ML with Pyrodex. Internet fallacy, IMO.

 

[Michael]

My only experience with black is in BPCR rounds. IME heavier compressed charges shoot cleaner with less fouling.
That being said, I realize that managing compression using a compression die is much easier than pounding on a powder column with a stick.

 

[Tomme boy]

Oscer. What I do is if it is a patched ball or a conical, I put a damp patch over my cleaning jag when I am pushing the ball down the barrel to seat whatever. It is wiping the fouling out as I seat it. I can get 15 or more shots in my side hammers before I run just a few damp patches and dry it out.

But that Swiss made the fouling extremly HARD. I was not even able to seat the second conical over the powder. It would stop about 2 inches from the powder. This was after the very first shot. I shot it anyway as it won't hurt a thing that close to the powder. But I had to take it home and clean it there as the fouling was so hard it would not let me get a patch through it. I left the rod and wet pat in the bore as it was stuck. So when I got home it was soft enough that it pushed right threw.

I know people talk about Triple 7 powder getting a ring of crud that does this same thing in inline guns. I think that with the 209 primer and a heavier charge of the Swiss that was what happened. Or my lube?????

Oh, I also run a lubed felt wad between the powder and whatever I am shooting. That really helped the accuracy on the LEE conicals and the TC maxi-balls

 

[Ian]

I shoot patched roundball and black powder. Not a fan of conicals or grease lubes in muzzleloaders, but I don't shoot at things more than 100 yards away with them either. Several things can be done to help your situation, though, the first of which being to wipe with a damp patch between shots and make sure the crud ring (which occurs with any and all propellants in a muzzleloader) is cleared out each time before reloading. You can also use an oiled fiber wad between powder and ball but wiping between shots makes that unnecessary. Swiss does the concrete thing sometimes, had bad issues with that in my 45/90 WCF on one particular dry outing, but a blow tube and frequent wiping cured it. Nothing I've found compares to Swiss consistency and only one type of powder I've produced myself comes close to how little residue it leaves behind, but when you introduce wax and grease into the fouling equation which begins as a water-soluble mix of salts, you get asphalt that has to be dealt with specifically and I haven't found a cheat to prevent having to wipe unless using a really wet oil patch and round ball. A slightly damp patch and ball, if using a water-based lube like spit, Hoppe's #9 Plus patch lube, or any other water/alcohol/detergent/soap based liquid patch lubes, I find it unnecessary to wipe the bore between shots, ever.

 

[RicinYakima]

What he said.^^^^^^

 

[Rick H]

I run Swiss 3f in 45 and 54 cal. roundball flinters. TOW mink oil (tallow) lubed pillow ticking patches. I use the mink oil for both target and hunting. At the first sign of crud ring making loading difficult I run a wet patch of water/ballistol/with drop of dawn down the bore. Usually every 5-7 rounds. I resist shooting with a wet patch because I intend to use the same load for hunting and target work.
I use a substantial load of 90gr. of Swiss in the .54, and a moderate to light load of 45 gr. of Swiss in the .45. It doesn't seem to make a difference. The same regimen works for both of them.

Clean up after shooting consists of plain room temp water, a patch or two of water/ballistol/dawn mix followed by gun oil or eezox. I believe I have been blessed with very good/smooth bores. Both rifles clean up very easy.

 

[Maven]

I am shooting plain ball. Patch is a pre-bought round, guessing lightly lubed with bore butter (patch is yellow and damp). Maybe I need a better patch/lube - or maybe just learn to live with it.

Tomme - Pls clarify. When you seat the ball/projectile - you are (in my case) seating a patched ball, with a patch over the ball/b/n the ball and the jag?

A couple of points: (1) Elephant was one of the dirtiest and slowest BP's. As Tomme boy mentioned, Diamondback, its replacement was excellent. And TB, I wish I could get more of it as well. (2) Stumpy's Moose Snot is a home brewed grease lube that works exceptionally well and is easy to concoct. (Google it if interested, and you don't have to use castor oil as specified). If you want a wet lube, 1 Ballistol : 6 water works very well, as does, a 50 : 50 mix of Dawn dishwashing soap and water. (It's almost too good to be true from what I've read). Hope this helps!

 

[300BLK]

Ballistol and blackpowder fouling combine to smell like an outhouse in August

 

[oscarflytyer]

Thanx guys! Great info as always.

And yes, Maven - I had read that Elephant was one of the slowest. And as far as dirtiest - maybe that is why a buddy gave me a bunch of awhile back! Oh well! It was free!

I hope the Scheutzen is cleaner.

 

[Ian]

It is.

 

[oscarflytyer]

Thanx Ian! I needed that! Will try it next go-round. Have 3 lbs