Bore Pre-treat

[JWFilips]

Hi Guys,
Since I'm a devout user of Ben's Red and BLL overcoat on my bullets. I very seldom have to clean my bores.
General consensus was every so often a wipe with an ATF patch & you are good to go.

Well I have still found some 1st round strangeness over time with this but I think I have got it beat ( well not as good as a non clean bore ....next trip to the range )....but if you have to clean I have found by dissolving a 1/2 teaspoon full of Ben's Red in some Naphtha and then coating a patch with it and running it up and down the bore 2 times. I have been getting a far closer "first shot in the first group" then with any other bore treatment ( except no cleaning at all)....Have no idea why but maybe since the bullets down the bore are coated with Ben's Red ....maybe a precoat of Ben's Red duplicates a preshot barrel.
What ever it is I'm going to use this system from now on
Jim

 

[Ian]

Yep.

 

[35 shooter]

Glad you found what works for you JW! Definitly pays to experiment.

 

[Ben]

I've been know to put a couple of drops of Trans Fluid and a light smear of Lucas Red and Tacky on a white cotton patch and run it up and down my bore a couple of times.

You're right , it helps.

I also think it mimics a cold 1st round fired inside your barrel.

Ben

 

[Eutectic]

It's a cold winter morning and you decide to change oil in your truck. You go out and start it and let it warm up some while you have another cup of coffee. You are working on the old oil filter and the filter wrench slips as they are know to do... You bang a knuckle on the cross member and it is bleeding.... You mumble some words and go wash it off and put a band-aid on it. You get the filter loose and then spill oil on your band-aid! (The oil IS a pun intended in this parable.)

This is my opinion of bore treatments..... They are a band-aid....

In the past I have worked a lot with bore treatments for control of the infamous "cold start"! I believe over on the "Extreme thread" I was the one starting the slight powder charge reduction to attempt to put the cold start right in the group... These methods may improve that 1st one but they can "vary" for you... I don't like "very"!!

The "cold start" is probably only important for hunting or a 'no fouler' match.
Then too, most are probably happy when their 'minute of angle' favorite load still grouping 'minute of softball' with the cold start included on a cold day....

I have a hunting situation however, that doesn't include any softballs! I love to hunt our Blue Grouse as they are such GOOD table fare. Many times a grouse will go behind cover (like an old tree on the ground). Then he will look at you with only his head and some neck showing...... Murphy's Law has this shot a "cold start"!!

So I demand "minute of grouse eye"!! No bore treatment or powder reduction gives me this...... Only lube formulation does....

I can't tell you how many hours and formulation tweaks I have worked with to get a couple combinations for grouse hunting that will make a 60 yard grouse head shot from a cold barrel every time.

This is beyond a doubt the PhD area of lube formulating. Formula changes can be small even less than 1%! Or dumping a component completely. So far, my formulas are even gun specific! But it's what I need for the task at hand. It is the final tweak that makes a very good lube a great lube.

The only common ground I know now to get there is keep your formula simple with as few ingredients as possible and stay away from the heavy duty automotive or machinery additives.... POE (ester) oil in small %'s helps C.O.R.E. and is in 2 of my grouse lubes

Pete

 

[Ian]

Interesting, Pete. The exact same thing you mentioned in your last paragraph is true at the other end of the temperature spectrum as well. No Alox or Lithium in any of my best-shooting lubes.

 

[35 shooter]

I use the same Ben's Red as JW, and i also use Bll as a stand alone lube. Both lubes are loaded with either atf oil, lithium, and or alox.

I learned to hate alox early on because of purge shots...untill i tried BLL. Something in the JLW has a tameing effect on the alox evidently...no purge shots.
It's the only tumble lube i've ever used that would put the cold bbl. shot "centered" in the group everytime.
I use it in the coldest days of winter here in MS. to the hottest days of 105*.

With Ben's Red i leave the bore fouled if it's not going to be long before i shoot again. The results of that are cold bbl. shots "in the group" and close enough to centered for small game hunting(head shooting squirrels)...body shots wastes meat on small game with a 35 whelen.

However...we have high humidity here, and while my fired condition bbl. "may" be alright as far as rusting, if i'm going to store it for awhile, i prefer to clean after firing.

BLL doesn't care if my bore is cleaned or left fouled for the first shot from my whelen...don't know about my .308 as i haven't tested it for both conditions yet.
With Ben's Red and a cold freshly clean bbl., while not absolutely neccesary, i do use a "band aid" of one wet patch of atf oil followed by 1 tight dry patch....first shots centered in the group for over 3 years now(no varying).

Groups with hunting loads run from 1.5" or less with unweighed boolits @ 105 yds. to 1" or less with weighed boolits...usually much less with both weighed and unweighed. Speeds are from 1275 fps. to 2500 fps. with my hunting and target loads .

When i say the bandaid is not neccesary with Ben's Red, my first shot at the range with a whistle clean bbl. is going to be very very close
(within the 1.5" group), but not centered in the group @ 105 yds.
With the atf patch followed by a dry before shooting with a cleaned bbl., i'ts centered in the group, or within a half inch of the x.

I love all the lube threads and experimenting going on, and read them all with much interest. However, i sometimes get confused by some of the comments i see about atf, lithium,etc., etc. versus the experience i've had with the lubes i use that contain those very ingedients.

I wonder if sometimes it comes down to the ratio used in a certain lube?
For instance, pure alox purges like crazy for me and the same goes for dipping bullets in Johnson's Paste Wax. Yet, add alox and Johnson's Liquid wax together and everything comes together.

 

[Brad]

It is ratio to an extent but more important we must remember that cold weather for Pete might start at zero. He wants no cold barrel flyers at 25 below. Ian is looking for certain traits at 100 plus.

 

[Ian]

I'm still looking for a true "Extreme" lube which will do both. We're pretty close and have been for a while.

One thing I don't like to do is shoot a lubricated cast bullet down a dry or new barrel without some actual bullet lube residue being first applied. What Jim is doing is similar to what I do after a de-lead, de-copper, or in a new barrel, except I don't dilute the lube. My lubes are soft enough already that they only require a little pill smeared on a patch to coat the bore just fine. One tight, dry patch following that to get the streaks out and it's off to the range.

 

[35 shooter]

It is ratio to an extent but more important we must remember that cold weather for Pete might start at zero. He wants no cold barrel flyers at 25 below. Ian is looking for certain traits at 100 plus.

Yeah, i can only wish for cold like that to shoot in here in MS. My brother was going to do it for me in CO. this year with some Ben's Red and BLL, but had a badly torn retina that required emergency surgery.
Good news is he's recovered now and should retain 20/20 with a new prescription, so maybe i can motivate him yet. It may still be a while before he attempts shooting at all though.
I was glad to see tests with it at -17* this year though.
105* with a 112 heat index and a ton of humidity is about the high here.

Yeah, i figured ratio had something to do with it, as i've used other lubes that contain like ingredients as i'm using now, but mixed differently, and results were less than acceptable for me.
Good lubes ,just not so much for 1st shot performance, or taking multiple shots to get it to settle down in the bore.

Anyway, i'm always very interested in everyone's results when it comes to lube testing. I'm always gleaning something new from it.[/QUOTE]

 

[Rick]

I deleted all the extra posts/chatter in this thread to get back on track of Jim's original post.