Can Bruce B's Soft Point Method Be Improved On?

[yodogsandman]

Thinking hard on Bruce B's soft point method today.

Instead of floating the mold on the melt, why not use the hot plate and set the temperature to what you want?

Can I cast say, a Lee 356-100-1R or 356-120-TC from pure lead to use for the 310gr, .35 Thumper bullet? How about a .311" round ball at 45gr for 30 cals? Soft nose weight consistency would be better. Would it matter much?

How about pre-casting soft noses to the final hunting molds nose size? They could be brought up to slump temperature in the mold on a hot plate and the mold would be hot enough to cast with a harder alloy. Less splishy, splashy mixing of the different alloys in the mold when cast?

Do we really need to stay at the 1/3 soft alloy to 2/3 hard alloy ratio. Could we use a certain size soft nose section to predict exit hole size on game? Tough one here, I like high retained bullet weight, huge frontal expansion AND secondary projectile organ damage.

Heat treat Bruce B's soft points normally?

Does the soft nose portion need to be kept off of the bearing surface of the bore and grooves? Would bullet nose slump at higher velocities matter here? Do velocities and shooting distances be kept lower?

What are your thoughts on this? Anyone have any real world experience with them and care to share how you would improve on the method?

I hate tracking wounded game and prefer that they drop within sight of the shot. My dad always said to "shoot em again" if you had any doubt because, he didn't want to have to chase em all over the mountain. I appreciate that statement more now. Bruce B's method seems the best way to go to prevent that.

 

[Chris]

I've gotten interested in the cast two-piece bullets off and on. Once got far enough along with the project to make a tiny dipper and make some by ladling from two pots. Never killed anything with them though so I have no real world experience with this.

I would like to add to yodogsandman's questions above:

1. Does this make more sense when using smaller diameter bullets? Does a 7mm rifle bullet benefit more from expansion than a .358 or .45? Seems like it has built in utility for the smaller diameters, frontal diameter increase etc.

2. Velocity and softnoses: what is the optimal velocity for expansion without just blowing the nose off and ruining a lot of meat? Seems like asking for trouble if pushed too fast, but what is too fast?

 

[Ian]

You're going to get a lot of different answers here.

I think the first point that needs to be made is a discussion about what makes things the deadest, the soonest, and that is trauma. Obviously, CNS hits are going to be at the top of the list of how to make a DRT, or at least a bang/flop. But often in the real world it is difficult to make those precision shots reliably, and no one wants to chance missing by an inch and causing a slow, miserable death days or weeks later, so I think a lot of us go for "boiler-room" shots when it comes right down to it. We all know the problem there, particularly with lung shots. Unless you have a really huge, soft bullet, the deer is going to run for half a mile. A heart or aeorta shot is good, but still you can count on 100-150 yards before the muscles completely fail from oxygen starvation.

So how to deliver the goods to the boiler room? VELOCITY. Especially with smaller calibers. Expansion is good, bigger holes are better than smaller ones, but still it's just a hole unless you have some serious, shock-wave-producing velocity. An expanding or blunting type point together with velocity is probably the best combination.

I've taken a few deer with pretty much broadside heart or lung shots using .30-caliber cast bullets going about 16-1800 fps on impact, and it is NOT the best thing. The only true DRT I have ever had was with a percussion revolver and a soft .45 round ball right behind the point of the elbow, bang-flop at very close range. Though I refuse to do it, I have friends that hunt whitetail with .223, and usually the shots are lung area and it really snuffs them out most of the time if good hunting bullets are used and the range is pretty close.

This is why I'm a velocity buff when it comes to cast bullets .30-caliber and smaller. No 1800 fps for me any more for killing stuff. More like 22-2600, where the shock is greater and it's easier to make a tough, reliable cast bullet that will behave predictably whether hitting bone, muscle, or whatever.

 

[yodogsandman]

Had two bang/flops with the .58 cal ML with a 505 gr Minnie ball over 70 gr 2F BP, so maybe 1000 FPS. The first was a small buck at 100 yards, middle of chest shot...one kick and done. The other, another small buck at 25 yards, aimed behind the shoulder at a bad angle and it glanced off the near the shoulder, out the neck, in the back of the head, out the forehead just above the eyes. So mass and frontal area does count, too. Pure lead is amazing stuff on game.

Not to argue your point Ian, just showing the other side of the coin. I would prefer your way. I have no other cast bullet experience on game to draw on. Given the choice, I want two bleed holes too, just in case.

 

[9.3X62AL]

I've previously written this account of my sole experience using BBSPs on an animal of middling size, a pretty health male coyote almost 3 years ago. Bullet was a Lyman #311041 @ .310", BBSP 1/3 lead (55 grain .225" donor slug) and 2/3 92/6/2, about 1800 FPS at muzzle. Range was 115 yards, bang/flop. Entry was 1/2" hole at back edge of left ribcage, exit was a ragged/stellate-aspect about 1.5" through front of right shoulder. Not conclusive in any way, except for that coyote's case.

I now have BBSP loads assembled in several calibers. In these calibers I cannot detect any significant variance of targeting accuracy or barrel-leading potential between the BBSPs and homogenous 92/6/2 bullets used to practice with. They shoot inside each others groups ant 50-100--150/200 yards. None yet exceed 1800 FPS.

 

[Brad]

I have used a similar method. I use a smaller pot and a dipper made from a 380 ACP case. Sprue plate is open, soft lead is dumped in. Sprue plate is closed and harder lead is poured in. Seem is visible, sometimes a flaw is evident. Didn't worry me any as I was casting a 425 RD for 45-70. The flaw just wasn't gonna matter.
That wa when I was as bottom pouring. With my Rowell 2 ladle I bet I could improve quality a bunch because I can get far better mould heat control.

The need for this method is, in my opinion, of greater use in smaller bores and with bullets of a round nose or pointy nose design in larger bores. A 45-70 flat nose doesn't really need expansion.

I have shot 3 deer and 2 bears with cast ina 45-70, 2 deer with cast in 45 Colt, and one with cast in 30-30. The deer were with the 425 RD at 1700 at 10 yards. That one went 30 yards and fter being nearly knocked on its side. Heart was struck with first shot. Another was with a 350 RD at under 10 yards at around 1800 fps. That one went less than 10 yards. Third 45-70 deer was around 100 yards with a 350 RD HP at 1800. That one was a too hard alloy and the bullet nose disintegrated. Bullet bounced off shoulder blade and ended in the neck. Deer was below me and quartering towards me. Went right down but got up while I was walking towards it. Luckily the neighbor was nearby and finished it with a Texas heart shot with a 308 jacketed round at 20 yards.
The 30-30 was water dropped range scrap at 2000 fps winthe 165 RD bullet. Deer was around 25 yards. It ran maybe 30 yards before I could finish it. It was very sick at that point. That bullet did not exit.
The 45 Colt deer were with a 265 WFN at 1600 in a Marlin for the first one. Shot was 30 yards or so. Deer was found dead maybe 40-50 yards away. Solid lung shot with complete penetration. Good blood trail thru tall grass. Second one was also deer I shot. A 300 flat nose at around 1100 fps. Good penetration but poor wound diameter. Needed a follow up shot after the deer ran 50 yards and got into a deep gully. That bullet did not penetrate clear thru on a broadside shot.
The bears were both hit with a 45-70 Marlin and a load of H322 giving a 420 flat nose plain base 1650 fps, cast from water dropped range scrap. Both got complete penetration at less than 25 yards. Both bears ran less than 50 yards on double lung shots. First one had the off shoulder utterly destroyed by the bullet. The damage was amazing so see as the bear was skinned. No meat was recovered from that limb.

What did I learn? That Ian is somewhat right. Speed kills. Penetration does a good job but even a large diameter bullet does a better job at higher velocity. One major caveat. The bullet MUST remain long enough in realign to diameter to ensure good penetration. You must ensure the bullet can penetrate well on less than ideal shots. Can your bullet penetrate a shoulder blade at an angle and still get into the boiler room?

Expansion helps a small diameter bullet kill but don't let it destroy the penetrating ability of the bullet. A 30-30 bullet with 3/16 inch of soft nose is plenty. Let the short soft nose expand and create a good wound while the longer hard shank penetrates thru. The nose will be intact long enough to give good cavitation, if that is the right term, in lung tissue. If a major bone is struck the soft nose can blow off and a long enoug bullet remains to penetrate thru.

There isn't a single right answer for all situations. Make sure the bullet design, diameter, velocity, and soft nose or HP length are balanced to ensure some expansion but also allow good penetration. Two holes are always a good thing.

 

[9.3X62AL]

I use donor slugs, and use Bruce's last revision of his method. He and I were in pretty regular phone contact while he worked on this method at various times.

I had planned on hunting the local mountains this year with the Win '73 x 44/40 using SAECO #446 (200 grain FN plain-base) at about 1250 FPS for our local deer. I have 20 of those loaded up, donor slugs were from a Lyman #257420. Family medical difficulties blew out my deer hunting entirely this year, better luck next season. I still have 2 more deer seasons of cast bullet usability before the whole state "goes unleaded".

 

[freebullet]

I have not done Bruce b's method although I've read about it, & spoken with a couple folks who've tested it. I just determine if I want explosive expansion or maximum penetration & go from there.

It's definitely an interesting study. One of the fields we hunt requires drt shots or you loose the animal to the neighboring property where trespass access won't be granted even for recovery. Here's what I've learned.

Cns shots=drt
Spine shot=immobilized but, often needs a follow up
Front shoulder with full penetration =drt
Liver shot=immobilized but, may need a follow up
Double lung or heart shot= 50-60 yard run
Single or high double lung shot = 100-300yd run
Texas heart shot with full penetration =drt

Based on that I prefer a high velocity hollow point for broadside shots or a tough enough bullet/load to penetrate deep for the others.

I really like how hollow points can be tuned to "blow up" whatever they hit but, that's not going to work in several of the above scenarios. On the flip side a really tough bullet that zips through with caliber sized holes on both sides isn't ideal either.

An old timer I knew would solder a steel or copper bb in the tip of his homemade hollow points. He claimed it worked well and I had no reason to doubt him. He claimed the the trapped hollow cavity made them more explosive.

Another fellow filled his hollow points with hard wax. Claimed it had a hydraulic effect that worked really well at ensuring expansion.

I posted a pic here last dec of a button I shot with the mp454308k over 60gr goex. The heart shot is still posted. It busted his right shoulder liquefied one lung & half the heart. He broke his left shoulder in the bang flop. He never got up & expired immediately.

 

[Brad]

I was just reminded of an important fact. I learned of the idea of a two part bullet in a long ago article by Ross Seyfried in Handloader magazine. That was a rehash of an article from a 1989 article he wrote for Guns and Ammo.
He felt that the flaws weren't really important. He also didn't concern himself with a strong bond between the two halves as the nose was being shoved into the body on impact rather than being pulled away from the body.

Just shows the idea isn't new but has been improved upon. Bruce devised a method that gives a much nicer looking bullet. Bruce also was great at communicating his idea to the masses in a way that was easily understood.

 

[358156 hp]

I experimented with soft nose cast using about the same method Brad did. I admit that I got frustrated with my rejection rate, and instead followed the path of soft case HPs on gascheck designs. I also cast some of my HP bullets without the HP stem, and instead dropped a pre-heated airgun BB in the nose. I only had partial success with the BB thing because the BBs wanted to float on top of the alloy instead of staying at the bottom. My two cast bullet deer fell to 50/50 WW/pure lead. One was in a 45-70 with a 325 gr RCBS bullet, and the other was a rather stiff loaded .307 Winchester with Lymans 169 RN. Neither deer made it over 20 feet. Both moulds were cast solid. No HP at all.

There is an auction on GB for one of Lymans composite 44 mould sets. I'm sure you've all seen them before, but it consists of a single cavity mould for the base of the mould, to be cast from harder alloy, and a second mould for the nose piece of the bullet to be cast from soft alloy. Lyman intended for you to epoxy the two bullet halves together to make a complete bullet. The resulting bullets developed a reputation for inaccuracy, it seems to me that this sort of project would work better using a modified version of Bruces technique.

I would consider casting a mess of bullet noses out of a soft alloy, then keeping them hot in a PID controlled toaster oven, slightly below the slump point. Take them out one at a time and insert them in the preheated (very hot) mould cavity and dump very hot hard(er) alloy in on top of them. Perhaps the combination would fuse together to make a more viable bullet. The major downside would be the scarcity & cost of the moulds, and the total hassle of doing it this way when you can use Bruces method and get virtually the same results.

Another option that probably isn't an option at all would be to reinvent Veral Smiths "Soft Nose Caster". At one time LBT offered a modified LEE pot that would dispense an adjustable small, metered amount of lead directly from the pot. Then you would need to quickly top off the cavity with the harder alloy. These haven't been available for ages, and my plea to have one made, or to buy the plans have gotten me nowhere with Veral. I keep threatening to make one on my own. It shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[Brad]

My two part bullet making got easier when I saw a little Lyman casting pot at Cabelas in the back room. Got it for 30 bucks or so. Holds like 5 pounds of lead. Makes it simple to have two different melts at the same time.

I bet Tom at Accurate could make a mould to cast noses for a like full bullet mould. He could even do it with both cavities in a single block. Like was mentioned above it would be easy to use a PID controlled oven to keep the noses hot before placing them in the mould for casting.

 

[freebullet]

A mold you pour from the top then the bottom could be made to produce a dual alloy bullet. Think nose pour & bottom pour in the same mold. One poured for base/body then remove the pin on the other side & pour the top. It could be done.

Timing & a generous trough sprue would be helpful.

 

[yodogsandman]

My idea was to use one mold to cast the donor slug of a consistent size from pure lead. Then drop it in the hunting bullet mold and heat on the hot plate to melt it into the hunting bullet molds nose shape. Let them freeze up in the hunting molds nose and drop them out for later use.

In use these nose sections could then be put back in the hunting bullets mold and reheated on the hot plate until molten. Harder base alloy could then be added with the sprue plate closed.

 

[catskinner]

I have used two alloy soft nose bullets on deer and 1 antelope. Never tried Bruce's method. Here's how I did it . I have a Lyman adjustable core mold I used to cast the soft alloy either pure lead or lead/tin mix. Rigged a stand to hold my Lyman dipper over the flame from a propane torch. Melted the soft alloy in the dipper and after the mold was hot enough to cast good bullets I'd pour the melted soft nose in the mold and immediately fill the mold from the bottom pour pot. Did leave a ragged looking seam but I never could pull them apart with a plier on either end. Twice when cutting up deer I found the soft nose had seperated. Found them about 6 inches in from the entrance hole. By that time they had done their job. Two pieces of lead flying around in a deer should kill a deer twice as fast as a single piece of lead. With the soft nose devoid of antimony they stayed soft when heat treating and the wheelweight base got up to 18-20 bhn. The soft noses would swell when going thru the lube sizer. Got around that by sizing nose first and pan lubing. I was curious if the ragged seam affected accuracy. One year after deer season I shot fiive 5-shot groups at 100 yards with both single and two alloy bullets. Average of each was exactly the same. This was with a 300 Savage and a 190 grain bullet at 2100 fps.

 

[KHornet]

Have made soft nose but with the dipper and leaving a mark, but never killed anything with them.
They shot to same point of aim as the same cast without the nose softened. Also played with
paper/alum foil between the blocks of the mold in 45-70 bullets. They shot to point of aim, and
would about cut a 2x4 in half. Could not recommend for hunting.

 

[Chris]

Now this is not the 2-part bullet that is the topic, but you can make a good hunting bullet by taking an appropriate ductile alloy and water quenching it. Then set the bullets in water and de-temper the nose with a torch with a small flame. Or better yet I suppose you could oven temper the bullets and have better control over BHN. Personally I water drop my alloy and get 24-25 BHN.

This works well if you are loading high pressure and need the hard alloy to perform, it works well with Marlin MG. I have not seen a decrease in accuracy. Currently hunting with this.

The nose can never get any softer than the natural alloy, so keep the alloy composition in mind and consider the velocity you are shooting at. I do not know how long the nose will stay soft, I have not tested that... but it should last through deer season.

Paco Kelley wrote about this, that's where I got the idea. I also know it has been published elsewhere, possibly here, can't remember.

 

[9.3X62AL]

Some caveats for all and sundry......Bruce's thrust was to make the cast bullet into the best possible game-taker. He didn't consider any calibers smaller than nominal 30 for this usage, and his thoughts were that 30/30 WCF was probably a good "floor" caliber for this use. If you peruse his writings at the old site, he wanted the bullets to look as good as they performed. His latter-period adaptation of letting the soft point and harder drive section melt together after the drive section was poured and hardened bears this out. During our discussions, he opined that the heavier specific gravity of the pure-lead nose portion would assist in keeping the lighter (in my bullets, 92/6/2 alloy) metal from mixing together when melted in any significant amount. He cautioned to handle the moulds cautiously while they contained the phase-separated metals in liquid state to facilitate this bonded and layered freezing. My testing using a Buckshot Hardness Tester bears out that noses and bases have significant hardness differentials as intended by Bruce.

Now--if I could just get the coyotes and deer to cooperate a bit more during the field testing processes.......

 

[John]

I played with a soft nose dipper after a Ross Seyfried article in the 80's. Someone made an adjustable dipper but I never saw one. I had problems with separation, occasionally in the lube sizer. I had 100 % separation when oven quenched. When I dipped a soft charge in I wasn't happy with the frequent angled lines showing the melts. I was of the opinion that a bullet could shear or veer of course easily with that. I tried Bruce's method and got some nice looking bullets. I have never shot any game with them. I settled on dropping a 32 cal muzzle loader ball weighing 60 grains in a hot mold and timing while the mold is in the melt. Best looking ones so far. No pics as we are still in a rental and much of my equipment is in storage.
When casting a sp ask how many you need. I would say 5-10 to verify point of aim is unchanged and 20 should do 5 years of hunting. The time involved is not that much in comparison to our needs. If you are going to sell them that is a different story.
Added that my soft alloy was kept in the melting pot by taking a 2" black pipe nipple, getting it red hot and beating one end together then welding it together. I welded a piece of angle iron on the side so it fit inside my casting pot. It kept both hard and soft lead at the same temps but I settled on the round balls as a much easier method.