Has anyone ever?

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freebullet

Guest
Wondering if anyone has measured the hardness of their bullets before & after firing. Maybe it's pointless but, I'm curious anyway.

For example, if you'd heat treated a batch & measured their hardness before and after firing.

I suppose the medium they were fired in to might have an effect on how much they were annealed. Just curious.

We'll be ordering a cabine tree tester soon hopefully. Any thoughts or experiences about that or another model might prove helpful.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I can say I have never done so. It will require a bullet with a flat nose after Impact to get a decent reading.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
I suppose the medium they were fired in to might have an effect on how much they were annealed. Just curious.

Firing them won't "anneal" them. The term your looking for is "work soften". To anneal the bullet you need to heat it up and let it cool slowly.
.
 
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freebullet

Guest
Interesting. However, I'd think at least part of it could be heated. At least on expanding bullets.

For example the hp bullets I fired into the milk jugs show clear signs of liquidous state at the front of the bullet. How hot it got I don't have any clue. Firing them into cool water jugs could potentially reharden them? Like water dropping.

The round nose never show any of those signs.

Oddly enough one thing I've learned tinkering with alloy is cast lead hp's like to open up. It's real easy to mess up & still get working bullets.

Vs. Messing up with jax, they'll tend to zip through if to tough. The lead usually still expands or blows apart some.


I know this is kind of silly but, if I can learn anything it's worth thinking about.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Not hot enough long enough. Like when oven heat treating there is a huge difference heating them for a full hour vs a half hour.
 
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freebullet

Guest
Indeed. That makes sense.

Now I'm still wondering then how much work softening would take place on a recovered bullet. I don't know the answer or why I'd like to know it.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Put a bullet on an anvil and smack it hard with one solid blow with a sledgehammer. Pick it up with your bare fingers....you'll only do that once! Suckers get hot. Hot enough to flow? Who knows.

Here's a little secret you won't hear about anywhere else and won't know unless you mess with rifles and a whole bunch of different alloys at really high velocity: Tin isn't your friend. What does tin do for you...or against you? Well, several things, but one in particular is it lowers the melt point of your alloy. The leading edges of the lands take a tremendous frictional stress and heat, which as we know from MicroGroove Marlins can exceed the limit of the alloy and cause groups to get huge. So does the bullet get hot enough to melt the surface enough to affect accuracy? Well, it gets hot enough, for long enough, to burn Ivory soap in a .30-caliber starting at only around 1800 fps if there isn't enough wax or lithium soap there to buffer it, and Ivory soap starts to turn brown and scorch at around 480°F. Another fact, an alloy that melts at 600°F shoots a whole lot better in a .30-caliber at 24-2700 fps than one that melts at 550. A 6.5mm can go faster, but the same thing about alloy applies. One day I'd like to lean on .223 pretty hard and see if the same things about alloy holds true, but at higher velocity still.

I don't know if work-softening is a real factor, but metals lose strength when they get hot. Internal molecular friction due to sudden deformation causes a LOT of heat FAST in a lead bullet when it strikes something, so it's quite plausible that it becomes more or less fluid for a millisecond during impact.....or in the barrel. If you were REALLY fast with that Cabine Tree tester maybe you could measure a bullet as it comes out of the barrel.:eek:
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
you have to think about the internal stresses on the alloy.
the intermetallic bonds.
and the proportions.
antimony acts like a lubricant to lead when it is under pressure, this allows the lead to flow easier.
WHAT?
I thought antimony was brittle and added bhn?
the antimony crystals break down and start the slide allowing the lead to flow easier.

when we shove a boolit forward into a pipe hard enough we deform it and it tries to take the shape of the cylinder it is in.
sometimes up sometimes down
[this is why your alloy/boolit design matches are so important]
now we displace some of the metal and then twist and un twist it and then to add insult we stop shoving on it when the gas volume drops off.

now just flying through the air will heat the nose up [think tiles on the space shuttle and why they are there] and also areas around the lube grooves because of the disrupted air.
never mind going up and coming down through the sound barrier.

now add some Tin to the equation, it helps in one place and hurts in another, just like the antimony.
add the two together and you have a different matrix to deal with, change the proportions and you get a different result.
at some point you have a win/win just a little further one way or the other and you lose again.
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
An interesting thread with interesting theories. Do kind of like the Fiver statement regarding the tiles on
the space shuttle. That sort of makes sense to me. Beyond that, there is a whole lot of conjecture that
I am reluctant to comment on based on my lack of knowledge on the subject. Do however love my
Cabin Tree for what ever that is worth.
Paul
 
9

9.3X62AL

Guest
Social science degree-holder that I am, I would be totally out of my depth to comment in any direction on this subject matter. It is still KEENLY INTERESTING, nonetheless.

The only "experience" I have related to this series of questions involve past wildland fire investigations I have led or assisted on. There is widely-held belief among fire folks that firing bullets of any type into dry brushlands or grasslands can ignite fires. FOR SURE--steel-jacketed bullets very reliably produce sparks in flinty, granitic rocks or soils. Think "flintlock" arms in this regard. Tracer and incendiary rounds also produce many brushfires--as Camp Pendleton can attest to serially. National Fire Prevention Association has conducted exhaustive testing with both lead and gilding metal-jacketed bullets to assess their potential for igniting fires, and cannot to date under controlled conditions produce such effects.

That is not to say that impacts cannot produce ignition. Bullets defeating steel targets via penetration distribute shards of metal that glow red-hot, and are visible in subdued or absent lighting. Using Brad's example above of the hammered bullet "not taking long to examine in your hand", that could be a potential ignition source--but resulting fire cannot be produced under controlled conditions, and both NFPA and the FBI Labs have tried earnestly to produce such results. To date, there is no there there--to paraphrase Gertrude Stein. Of course, we all thought the Earth was flat until about 600 years ago, too--so, never say "never", and never say "always".
 
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RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Greek math founder Hecataeus of Miletus proved that the earth was round 2300 years ago. Only the Church in mid-evil times still believed that the earth was flat. But when you have all the books and are the only ones writing books, you get to tell your story. Kind of like "common sense", which doesn't exist, which is shared values and prejudices.

Lead and non-sparking metal jacketed bullets can not start fires, also add the Aberdeen Proving Grounds to the trials. However, the gases coming out the muzzle will start fires very very well!
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
A cloth patched muzzleloader round ball can start fires. Been there, don't that. Then again, it was the patch and not the projectile.

I don't know if anyone has done definitive testing to show how much a bullet gets work softened upon sizing. And how deep does that softening go?

A bullet definitely changes shape upon firing and that may well alter hardness of a heat treated bullet but I still see changes in results on impact between air cooled and heat treated bullet from the berm. Heat treated bullets don't deform quite as much so some of the hardness must make it down range. Empirical data only but if it wasn't for first hand observations we wouldn't know much, would we?
 
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freebullet

Guest
Thank you everyone for the insight & experience you've shared. It all helps put the puzzle pieces together. Great bunch we have here.
 

Paul

Member
This thread brings to mind a thread on another forum a few years ago. I believe it was one of those hilarious "cast-bullet wives' tales" threads regarding all the truly RIDICULOUS misconceptions espoused by the ignorant (and often loud-mouthed) "shooting experts" who want to tell us exactly WHY we shouldn't shoot lead in our firearms.

One story in particular told of the so-called gun guru who openly swore that lead projectiles exceeding 1,500 Fps would instantly LIQUEFY upon leaving the barrel!!!

So there's your answer: they melt mid-trajectory and the water jugs will be turned into steam-filled IED's, so don't try that at home!! Ha ha!!
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Dr.Franklin Mann's book, The Bullets Flight, answered all those questions over 100 years ago. Yep, the bullet acts like bubble gum for the first 2 inches out of the chamber. There is a reason we are shooting harder bullets these days.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Most of Mann's tests, particularly the barrel shortening experiments that indeed turned bullets into "bubble gum", were done with weak alloy and black powder. You can create, or avoid this situation at launch by manipulating alloy, alloy temper, and powder burn rate selection. I know, obvious. But, the precise manipulation of alloy constituents and how bullet moulds and powder brands and types are chosen still has an effect on the finer points of group dispersion even when magnificent failures are not taking place.

Something else Mann discovered was no matter how fastidiously perfect he tried to make his static fit, his best groups were still made by pre-conditioning a dynamic alignment and fit of the bullet....in other words he had to give the bullet some wiggle room and then bump it to fit at the right moment to have the best results. I've found that for the most part, that holds very true for smokeless powder and harder alloys, particularly at very high velocity. The exact timing of "bumping" to fit has to happen just as the bullet finds center. The powder pressure must not exceed alloy strength until the bullet has centered in the throat, and the alloy strength and pressure curve must allow some self-centering without damage to the bullet's concentricity while it is presented to the throat.

Something else Mann worked out which I find MOST fascinating is an actual calculation for torsional stress upon the land engagement surfaces of the bullet. A few of us worked on that for several years to no avail and then I stumbled across it one day when reviewing The Bullet's Flight. I plugged in some of my own data from successful and unsuccessful loads and found land stress to be aroung 10-12,000 p.s.i. on a bullet in the 27-30,000 p.s.i. ultimate compressive strength range, at peak pressure of the load, which I estimated to be in the 42-45,000 p.s.i. range. What I took away from that is land deformation failures affecting group dispersion at high velocity and pressure might be occurring, but if so likely are not due to chamber pressure alone. Perhaps a combination of frictional heat and abrasion along with that pressure could cause issue, if even that is the cause of high-velocity failure points. I quickly discovered that the only thing necessary to destroy groups in my .308s at 23-2400 fps was to add some tin. Same thing in a slightly slower twist .30 XCB at several hundred f.p.s. more velocity. Another fellow currently has found that powder coating and Hi Tek epoxy coatings are allowing respectable if not magnificent groups of 6mm bevel base bullets at nearly 3,000 f.p.s. when otherwise the limit was round 2,000, and that in .30 caliber 2,300 fps was possible with reasonable groupings when without coatings the limit was in the teens. All with the same alloy. I've speculated for years that the phenomenon of cast bullet groups going to pot at high velocity, once one has the other basics of fit, alloy, and powder have been reasonably mastered, ultimately comes down to land engraves being damaged. Normal twists need some sort of jacket at high velocity, be it paper, copper, or even a couple thousandths of slippery, tough cross-linked Polyester paint. So Freebullet's speculations about softening after shooting, even like I mentioned even if only taking place in the barrel for a few milliseconds where it cannot be measured, might very much deserve some more consideration.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Well stated, Ian. I too have suspected that loss of structure on the leeward side of the land engraving is a cause of loss of accuracy as velocity increases. How much "self centering" a lead bullet can do after ignition would seem to me to be very small. I have not followed the rabbit down the hole of high tech coatings because I am mostly a target shooter, and speed doesn't help me very much. Group sizes increase faster than the savings from wind drift, at least so far. However, I am following the discussion on several boards.