Ian
Notorious member
I don't know if there ever was a "standard", but lack of such or adherence to such by certain manufacturers sure has made us both scratch our heads while we talked this out.
1911 Loads and Tips
- Thread starter yodogsandman
- Start date
I don't know if there ever was a "standard", but lack of such or adherence to such by certain manufacturers sure has made us both scratch our heads while we talked this out.
Freebullet,
I just expand the mouth of the case to just get the bullet in. I use a taered plug I made.
Ian,
Gotcha!
Pistolero
The one thing that has always bothered me with roll crimp was the cases would have to be all the same length or the crimp would be different. How much would it take to change the pressure enuf to change the POI? At normal pistol ranges (25-50yds.) this might not make enuf difference to be measurable over the long haul? What about pistols at, say, 100 & 200 yds.? I plan on shooting the 625 out to 100 yds. at least. Will the cartridge OAL at that distance be one of the variables I need to keep in mind?
Pete
I just expand the mouth of the case to just get the bullet in. I use a taered plug I made.
Ian,
Gotcha!
Pistolero
The one thing that has always bothered me with roll crimp was the cases would have to be all the same length or the crimp would be different. How much would it take to change the pressure enuf to change the POI? At normal pistol ranges (25-50yds.) this might not make enuf difference to be measurable over the long haul? What about pistols at, say, 100 & 200 yds.? I plan on shooting the 625 out to 100 yds. at least. Will the cartridge OAL at that distance be one of the variables I need to keep in mind?
Pete
Last edited:
Consistency/accuracy in long range handgun will come far more from consistent bullet pull than from the crimp. See post #13 in the following thread. The crimp will help prevent bullet movement under recoil, consistent powder ignition/burn comes from consistent tension on the bullet. If the bullet does pull any it will change the powder capacity of the load so the crimp is needed but pay particular attention to neck tension.
Neck sizing the 454 case
In that test of crimps note that some of the tests had NO crimp at all. The load being tested was my 200 meter revolver load.
Rick,
Exactly! If a tighter crimp is applied due to difference in case length it would appear to me that it would affect neck tension. Seems no crimp, roll or taper, would be best.
Those of you that belong to the CBA know most/all of the highest scores are shot with breech seated bullets.
In ASSRA, except for .22 RF we pretty well all shoot breech seated at 100 & 200 yds. It's not unusual to fire 245+ x 250 with a couple of perfect scores every year. That's a 1 1/2" 25 ring at 200. 3/4" at 100.
I realize we have to roll or taper crimp in order to keep the bullets from moving under recoil. Doesn't make it a good idea tho.
Pete
Exactly! If a tighter crimp is applied due to difference in case length it would appear to me that it would affect neck tension. Seems no crimp, roll or taper, would be best.
Those of you that belong to the CBA know most/all of the highest scores are shot with breech seated bullets.
In ASSRA, except for .22 RF we pretty well all shoot breech seated at 100 & 200 yds. It's not unusual to fire 245+ x 250 with a couple of perfect scores every year. That's a 1 1/2" 25 ring at 200. 3/4" at 100.
I realize we have to roll or taper crimp in order to keep the bullets from moving under recoil. Doesn't make it a good idea tho.
Pete
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Not sure that the TC variation with small case length variation is significant in accuracy.
Seems like roll crimp would be quite sensitive to case length, far more so than my short
TC die.
Originally, my most critical requirement from .45 ACP loads was absolute, unquestioned
reliability. IPSC is totally unforgiving of jams, no alibis and you WILL get ribbed by your
friends if your gun/ammo doesn't "run", besides blowing your score badly. Accuracy was
somewhat secondary. Shooting 12 shots into three targets at 10 yds in 6 seconds with
a reload is not where you are going to notice a small change in accuracy! This is the El Presidente
standard exercise, where we started out thinking 10 seconds was difficult, and eventually
found that the better shooters could do it in 5.5-6 seconds, and 8 seconds was fairly
pedestrian.
Seems like roll crimp would be quite sensitive to case length, far more so than my short
TC die.
Originally, my most critical requirement from .45 ACP loads was absolute, unquestioned
reliability. IPSC is totally unforgiving of jams, no alibis and you WILL get ribbed by your
friends if your gun/ammo doesn't "run", besides blowing your score badly. Accuracy was
somewhat secondary. Shooting 12 shots into three targets at 10 yds in 6 seconds with
a reload is not where you are going to notice a small change in accuracy! This is the El Presidente
standard exercise, where we started out thinking 10 seconds was difficult, and eventually
found that the better shooters could do it in 5.5-6 seconds, and 8 seconds was fairly
pedestrian.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
I always thought that if you wanted a cartridge that would feed reliably, something
like the .30 Luger or .357 SIG, or the .38/.45 would just about HAVE TO go into the
chamber! Never have loaded for a bottlenecked pistol cartridge, so don't know, but
they probably bring their own set of issues.
I wonder what a Lyman TC die, current production, looks like.
Actually, Rick this is one of the most on-topic threads I can think of. We are still mostly
talking about what it takes to make good 1911 ammo, and that is kinda amazing in
itself.
like the .30 Luger or .357 SIG, or the .38/.45 would just about HAVE TO go into the
chamber! Never have loaded for a bottlenecked pistol cartridge, so don't know, but
they probably bring their own set of issues.
I wonder what a Lyman TC die, current production, looks like.
Actually, Rick this is one of the most on-topic threads I can think of. We are still mostly
talking about what it takes to make good 1911 ammo, and that is kinda amazing in
itself.
Ian
Notorious member
The thing about bottleneck auto-pistol cartridges is they have something other than the extractor claw or case mouth to handle headspace, so you can load revolver bullets and roll-crimp to your heart's content. Actually, you pretty much NEED to roll crimp in a crimp groove as the premium insurance policy against the bullets telescoping into the case. This is IMO one of the few redeeming qualities of the .357 Sig.
I only have one bet on the Lyman crimp die....that it's undersized!
Thread drift? I see none other than a quip or two. The topic is 1911 loads and tips, right?
I only have one bet on the Lyman crimp die....that it's undersized!
Thread drift? I see none other than a quip or two. The topic is 1911 loads and tips, right?
Some day.... Real soon now. I'd like to see if a guy could take their favorite pistol and just single load it using no crimp and see if accuracy was better/same/worse than using a crimped cartridge. I never tried it since it seemed like a waste of effort other than to see what the result would be.
But.... Has anyone done any test comparing a roll crimp to a tapered one?
Pete
I'd like to see if a guy could take their favorite pistol and just single load it using no crimp and see if accuracy was better/same/worse than using a crimped cartridge. I never tried it since it seemed like a waste of effort other than to see what the result would be.But.... Has anyone done any test comparing a roll crimp to a tapered one?
Pete
Accuracy will come from consistency of powder ignition/burn and that comes from a consistent grip on the bullet by neck tension. Neck tension used here in a straight wall case just as in a bottle neck. If the case grip (tension) is consistent ignition/ burn will be also. Of course depending on consistent charge weights etc.
Crimp will prevent bullet movement under recoil and no more crimp than needed for this need be used.
Read post #13 in the linked thread again and pay attention to the various crimps used. Crimps range from heavy crimp to no crimp at all. All of those tests loads were fired over the chrono and grouped on a 150 meter steel target. All of the chrono results are the same regardless of crimp. All of the groups were similar regardless of crimp. That says bullet pull was the same across all rounds fired in the test. It says that the crimp had no effect on consistency of powder burn. As a side note none of the bullets fired in this test pulled under recoil.
Neck tension variability (yes, even in a straight wall case) comes from many things. Number of times fired & sizing, sizing dies, case mouth crimping, wall thickness etc.
As was already said in this thread such accuracy tests would be from very difficult or harder to discern at typical short range pistol distances but you did ask about long range handgun shooting.
Crimp will prevent bullet movement under recoil and no more crimp than needed for this need be used.
Read post #13 in the linked thread again and pay attention to the various crimps used. Crimps range from heavy crimp to no crimp at all. All of those tests loads were fired over the chrono and grouped on a 150 meter steel target. All of the chrono results are the same regardless of crimp. All of the groups were similar regardless of crimp. That says bullet pull was the same across all rounds fired in the test. It says that the crimp had no effect on consistency of powder burn. As a side note none of the bullets fired in this test pulled under recoil.
Neck tension variability (yes, even in a straight wall case) comes from many things. Number of times fired & sizing, sizing dies, case mouth crimping, wall thickness etc.
As was already said in this thread such accuracy tests would be from very difficult or harder to discern at typical short range pistol distances but you did ask about long range handgun shooting.
RBHarter
West Central AR
I have 3 dies for AR ,ACP (adjusted to just chamber) and a separate taper crimp . For bullets I have a 45-200 SWC , 454-255 RNFP, 454424 SWC 257gr and a 429426 that has been "enhanced" to 448 and paper patches to 453 nicely.
I can run them in a S&W 1917 in acp or in a RBH as Schofield or Colts . The 429426 doesn't work in the BH but it's nice in the 1917 and 92' which I could introduce into the mix also. I need a project for the coming 2 week shutdown while I'm stuck at home.
I can run them in a S&W 1917 in acp or in a RBH as Schofield or Colts . The 429426 doesn't work in the BH but it's nice in the 1917 and 92' which I could introduce into the mix also. I need a project for the coming 2 week shutdown while I'm stuck at home.
yodogsandman
Well-Known Member
Just a note to say that my loads are all feeding good, now. I've separated the seating and crimping ops and using an RCBS TC die set for .465". Loaded 60 each with the NOE 453-230 RN and 60 each Lee 452-230 TC, both with 5.0gr Bullseye. They all fed nicely and went BANG. In my pistol, the Lee bullet shot much better. Now I'd like to try the Lee against the Lyman 452374 to see which 230gr bullets shoot best for me.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Glad your loads are feeding properly. If you have a 200 SWC mold, these have been excellent
shooters for most and stretch your alloy supply 15% farther than the 230s. The H&G 68 and clones
are highly recommended, with the 452460 just a squeak worse on feeding reliability, although this
is gun and mazazine dependent. The 452460 is usually a bit more accurate for me, but not in all
guns.
That RCBS TC die is the correct setup for a proper, tight but SHORT taper crimp which smooths
feeding and chambering without causing issues with sizing down the bullet. Apparently Redding
and Hornady current production TC dies are an extremely long taper, and are not really suitable
for more than .470-ish crimp, which causes some reliability issues in some guns, both feeding and
chambering.
Still learning about the loading tools out there......the differences in taper crimp dies is quite
surprising, producing entirely different results, and IMO, not in a good way.
Here is an image of one of my loaded rounds. This has a .464 TC right at the case mouth, although
it is difficult to measure because it is a relatively rapid taper. The area of the case which is smaller
than .470 is probably only .010-.020" long axially or so. This will feed with 100% reliability
in all my 1911s. This is a commercial cast version of the H&G 68, 1.250 LOA.
Bill
shooters for most and stretch your alloy supply 15% farther than the 230s. The H&G 68 and clones
are highly recommended, with the 452460 just a squeak worse on feeding reliability, although this
is gun and mazazine dependent. The 452460 is usually a bit more accurate for me, but not in all
guns.
That RCBS TC die is the correct setup for a proper, tight but SHORT taper crimp which smooths
feeding and chambering without causing issues with sizing down the bullet. Apparently Redding
and Hornady current production TC dies are an extremely long taper, and are not really suitable
for more than .470-ish crimp, which causes some reliability issues in some guns, both feeding and
chambering.
Still learning about the loading tools out there......the differences in taper crimp dies is quite
surprising, producing entirely different results, and IMO, not in a good way.
Here is an image of one of my loaded rounds. This has a .464 TC right at the case mouth, although
it is difficult to measure because it is a relatively rapid taper. The area of the case which is smaller
than .470 is probably only .010-.020" long axially or so. This will feed with 100% reliability
in all my 1911s. This is a commercial cast version of the H&G 68, 1.250 LOA.
Bill
Last edited:
Rick,
Not sure where you were going with reference to message #13, but reading a few before that reminded me the Leading I was getting in à Kimber .45 was probably due to the abrupt transition between the chamber and rifling. To bad I sold that gun and a couple other ones with the same problem. I passed the throating iidea on tto a friend who has the same Leading issues with his Kimber .45 and he'll see how it goes.
I have read somewhere (here?) that all (most?) new pistols have the chamber's cut for jacketed bullets. An exception seems to be the two Colt .45's I own. They have a longer throat taper and have never Leaded no matter how hard I push them. Got a few flakes with the S&W 625JM today when I ran it up to the max. listed in the Lyman manual even tho it's touted to be throated for Lead
Pete
Not sure where you were going with reference to message #13, but reading a few before that reminded me the Leading I was getting in à Kimber .45 was probably due to the abrupt transition between the chamber and rifling. To bad I sold that gun and a couple other ones with the same problem. I passed the throating iidea on tto a friend who has the same Leading issues with his Kimber .45 and he'll see how it goes.
I have read somewhere (here?) that all (most?) new pistols have the chamber's cut for jacketed bullets. An exception seems to be the two Colt .45's I own. They have a longer throat taper and have never Leaded no matter how hard I push them. Got a few flakes with the S&W 625JM today when I ran it up to the max. listed in the Lyman manual even tho it's touted to be throated for Lead
Pete
RBHarter
West Central AR
I actually have a Lyman set , 2 Lee sets and an RCBS single taper crimp . The Lyman set is 60s vintage and although not specified I belive is more tuned to the AR as it is only about 1/4-1/3 of a turn from heavy tapper to firm roll crimp and Dad had a Colt 1917 . The RCBS doesn't have a step in the tapper and to be honest I only use the FDC with the guts out as a sizer for the Colts in the 92' so I actually have no idea whether they are tapper only or a taper/roll crimp die .