1911 Loads and Tips

[Ian]

.451 diam is worth a try, but most of the time the difference is pretty small. The plunk test
is the correct way to get LOA and TC set correctly.

I think that leaving .470 or so diam on the case mouth winds up scraping crud off the chamber
walls as it feeds in. I think this builds up and slows down the round, sometimes preventing
it from fully chambering. Seems like about .468 or .467 it stops scraping, sliding over the
crud and chambers well. I give it a few extra thousandths for good measure, shooting for
.466 or .465.

Bill

That is weird. I get lube/powder buildup in the two I used in competition if I crimp too much. Also, sooty, goobered-up cases for about 1/8" back from the mouth on the outside. It's like the chambers are so large that they require the brass be left large to assist chamber obturation and to keep lube/powder gunk from making a U-turn at the case mouth and flowing between brass and chamber before the pressure is high enough to expand the brass to seal. Unique and other "slower" powders make this phenomena worse for me. I think if you and I were to trade pistols for a couple of months we'd both be a little bit surprised.

 

[Pistolero]

Ian,

Thank for your clear and cogent comments. I am amazed at your Redding TC die. The only .45 ACP TC die
I own is a 1981 marked RCBS TC die that I bought when setting up my RL450 for IPSC loading in 1981. I
sent an image of one of my rounds, (in the other thread) and perhaps you can see that it only sizes the extreme
end of the case, perhaps .010 or less down to .465 without touching the bullet forward of the case at all.

Your experience with your other guns shows that some have large enough chambers that they will accept
larger rounds with no issues. My experience is mostly with a number of older Colt 1911s, one early Kimber, and more
recently a pair of Dan Wessons. The DWs caused me to go from 1.260 LOA, which I had been using for
more than 20 years to 1.250 LOA due to tight match throats, but TC stayed the same. I primarily load
commercial cast H&G 68 replicas, although a portion is my own cast genuine H&G 68s.

If you are so inclined, and for anyone else out there who hasn't yet sprung for the TC die, I can recommend
the RCBS TC die, and it sounds like I would not want a Redding TC die. It appears that the Redding slope
on the taper is way too flat, where the RCBS seems pretty good, at least in my experience.

Interesting that you did find that .468 improved function in the M&P, so it isn't just old guns, it is
just "some guns".

If you see an old RCBS TC die on a table at a gun show for a good price, give it a try. I may try to pick
up another old RCBS TC die for a spare if I run across one. Guess this shows that there are some
pretty big differences in "A taper crimp die" from brand to brand. I will see if I can get a decent
photo of a case mouth on one of my loaded rounds, to show that it is a pretty abrupt taper.

 

[Ian]

The Redding die I bought definitely has a shallow taper to it, I'd say no more than 1 degree included angle, likely less. Anything below .468" caused throat leading due to squishing the whole front band down below groove diameter inside the case.

Our friend Charles Graff wrote in a thread on CB once "To universalize one's experience and state it as the norm is always thin ice on which to stand", and I asked him if I could quote that statement for posterity because it captures the essence of just about all confusion in these sorts of discussions and troubleshooting sessions. Different guns, different tools, different techniques all influence our knowledge base, and we don't often all come up with the same answer because of it. Regardless, I learned a lot here.

 

[Pistolero]

Yes, it sounds like the Redding die is doing an entirely different operation on your ammo than
the RCBS is doing to mine. That wide band of compressed brass is not something that I
would not want, either. What I get is just a bit more tapered than a roll crimp. Without pulling the
die and looking at it, I would guess that the angle is something like 30 degrees on the
taper, just based on the sensitivity to adjustment and the narrowness of the crimp zone. Part
of the reason I push for .465, is that with this steepness, a short case will get too little
crimp to work properly, and IPSC is all about 100% functioning.

The RCBS die is steep enough that the difference between .468 and .465 TC is maybe an
1/8-1/4 turn on the die, based on memory. It is a pretty steep taper, which seems to work
very well. Mr. Graff is a favorite, and I listen when he posts, there is a lot to be learned
from him, and from many others. The basis for my "universalizing" is that I have literally
had at least a dozen or more individuals come to me over three decades of IPSC, asking
how to make their reloads work in their 1911s. A few were LOA issues but the
overwhelming majority were no TC or just barely touching the case mouth, and their
jams disappeared with increasing TC. Typically, I would pull one of my round and give
it to them, telling them to set the LOA and TC so theirs looks just like mine.

I am starting to see that some die makers don't seem to be too tuned in to what is really
needed for certain operations. I have purchased the Redding "contour crimp" die and
tried it for my .44 Mag loads, finding nothing at all gained with Keith bullets compared
to a seat and crimp die, due to the Keith designs having their nice big crimp groove.

Thanks for your points, I, too, have learned from this discussion. I would suggest that
if you try TCing with an RCBS die, your experience will be quite different and much more
universally favorable.

Bill

 

[yodogsandman]

Got my RCBS TC on fleabay, like this one...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCBS-45-ACP...972806?hash=item4886f6e546:g:WTkAAOSwHQ9WVjdv

 

[Pistolero]

Here is what the inside of my old RCBS taper crimp die looks like.
You can see that the crimp occurs entirely over a 1/8-3/16 range, difficult to
estimate accurately visually. I suppose I could put some pin gages in
and measure the range of diams and lengths if anyone cares that much.

 

[Brad]

This is a Hornady 45 taper crimp. The taper is a single angle. The break you see is where the taper stops and it becomes a straight hole to the top of the die.
Comparing this to what Bill has shows how differently taper crimp dies can be. My die puts the taper over a far longer port in of the case than Bill's.
I may see if I can measure the largest and smallest sections of the taper along with the length and calculate an angle.

 

[Brad]

Anyone else got a 45 ACP taper crimp die they can post a photo of? Just want to compare multiple crimp sections to see how many "styles" there are.
Bill has a taper that it almost a modified roll crimp, mine is truly a taper. I kinda like the older style like Bill has. Easier to get a good taper crimp while no real fear of the crimp sizing down the bullet.

 

[Barn]

This is not a very good picture of my C-H taper crimp die. I think that a pound cast would be the best way to evaluate the dies.

 

[Brad]

Pound cast wasn't real successful. Some measuring tells me the angle is .84° per side. Pretty shallow.

 

[Barn]

Another try with my C-H die. I sifted through my junk brass supply and found a piece of .308 brass. I lubed the brass and ran it into the taper crimp die. The fired brass was unsized where the taper begins. However some useful dimensions were obtained. Diameter where taper begins is 0.465. Diameter where the taper ends is 0.457. Taper length is 0.125. I flared a .45 case and found that the actual diameter where the taper begins to be 0.471. 0.004 taper over 0.125 gives a taper angle of 1.833 degrees.

I think that an improved case based on the 308/30-06 case (straight case) could give us some good information on the taper dies.

 

[Brad]

I measured with pin gauges. From top of die to the largest the entered the bottom and top of die to smallest that wouldn't pass clean thru.

I think a larger angle might be better. More crimp at the case mouth without changing bullet diameter farther down.

 

[Pistolero]

Looks like the C-H is real similar to the old RCBS TC die. I think it would give similar
results to what I have had.

Bill

 

[Ian]

My Redding TC die is a straight taper from entrance up to just above the max depth of the case mouth, then straight bore through the top. Inside calipers are in the shop and ball gauges are at work, so I'll have to get better measurements later. FL sizing a pretty swollen case from my range brass shows .476" at the entrance and .460" at the case mouth, .700" farther up. That works out to something like 1.3° per side.

Bill, your TC die looks like my RCBS roll crimp die, except the RC die's step is arced and more abrupt.

 

[repete]

New here and have been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. Seems like a lot of different opinions as to what is THE best way to load .45 acp's. Some I agree with, some not, but here's what took me up to Indoor/Outdoor Master Class.
Back when I started BE shooting in the mid '60's a friend who was a previous Natl. Civilian champ told me to use the 200 gr. H&G bullet with 3.3 - 3.5 grs. of BE. Set the OAL to do the plunk test and put a .470 taper crimp (RCBS) on them with a separate die. And most important...... Shoot a Natl. Match Course with your 1911 twice a week.
Over the intervening yrs. with several custom and re-worked 1911's I've seen no reason to change.

Pete

 

[Ian]

Here's another way that works, just use the roll-crimp die. Last year when I purchased my gas-operated AR-15 upper I started using the roll crimp because the bottom two bolt lugs would rip two bad gouges in the case mouth of the top cartridge in the magazine. Using an RFN bullet and roll crimp to tuck the case mouth into the bullet took care of that. Incidentally, the system won't work with SWC bullets because the bolt lugs rip out the front band and case mouth.

 

[repete]

Ian,
I've only used a roll crimp on rimmed pistol cases, and then only in the mag. revolvers. Something I MIGHT get into when I'm done with moon clips in my S&W 625 which I'm playing with now and switch over to Auto Rim cases.
Notice your mention of working with your AR. .223 I assume? Will be working with a Sav. in that cal. as soon as pistol league is over Mar./Apr.

Pete

 

[freebullet]

I've only ever used the standard lee 45acp roll crimp die, it was all i could find local at the time. With careful adjustment it worked flawlessly on thousands of rounds fired from 7 different 45's including 4 1911's.
I think the lee expander that came in the die set was a key part of why it worked so well. It did not bell the mouth or roll it outward abruptly just expanded it open a bit.
I've found with dies that roll the mouth outward during expansion tend to be harder to correct when crimping without resizing the boolit in the process.

 

[Pistolero]

I am starting to see that a properly done roll crimp, with relatively consistent case lengths may
be not a whole lot different from what I get with my "abrupt taper crimp die". I believe that
my 9mm TC die is pretty similar, will have to check. I thought I knew what a taper crimp die
was, but the standard seems to have changed in the last 30 years so that my old dies are not
necessarily what the die makers are calling a TC die these days.

 

[Ian]

Ian,
I've only used a roll crimp on rimmed pistol cases, and then only in the mag. revolvers. Something I MIGHT get into when I'm done with moon clips in my S&W 625 which I'm playing with now and switch over to Auto Rim cases.
Notice your mention of working with your AR. .223 I assume? Will be working with a Sav. in that cal. as soon as pistol league is over Mar./Apr.

Pete

I was referring to my DI gas-operated .45 ACP upper receiver. It uses a magazine well adapter for single-stack HK subgun magazines and presents the cartridge at a pretty steep angle to the chamber, similar to a "Grease Gun". Due to the gap between the back of the bolt lugs and the front of the bolt carrier, the top cartridge in the magazine rides up into that gap a little as the front of the carrier rides back over the bullet nose and then it and gets knocked back down in the magazine as the bolt lugs pass over the top. Works fine with RN and RFN ammo with no step at the nose.

If you don't get "silly" with the roll crimp, it works as well as anything.

I to loaded about eleventy zillion rounds with the standard Lee seat/crimp die. My guns evidently weren't too finicky, but it did make a difference which magazines worked best. Using a heavy taper crimp like Bill suggested, feeding is improved with some magazine styles. Roll crimping also improves feeding in the autos considerably.