1911 Loads and Tips

[Brad]

I have used numerous things to lube my 1911. I have used Militec gun oil, CLP, red EP grease, and even some bullplate.
I want something that can help keep fouling soft in areas with moving parts. I prefer a good gun oil but almost anything can work.

 

[Dale53]

yodogsandman;
It looks like you are making REAL progress. Congratulations!

Regarding lube, you might want to read this from a big time gunsmith:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2006/05/lubrication-101/

Dale53

 

[yodogsandman]

This got me to thinking. 'Ol dad never had any gun lubes either. Remember, he was an Army armorer. He's always touted 3 in 1 oil for everything guns. I'd bet that's what he uses.

 

[Pistolero]

5W-30 synthetic automotive oil works great. I put aircraft red synthetic grease
on the rails and lugs of the barrel of my 1911 carry gun so it stays put
rather than bleeding off onto clothes and losing lube over time.

 

[Brad]

yodogsandman;
It looks like you are making REAL progress. Congratulations!

Regarding lube, you might want to read this from a big time gunsmith:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2006/05/lubrication-101/

Dale53

That site is a place I keep going back to regarding gun lubrication. That article is some of the best I have found.

 

[PatMarlin]

I'm right with the original poster on learning about the 1911.

Great thread.

 

[Ian]

Bill will be happy to know I recently acquired a Redding taper crimp die in .45 ACP and have been using it to good effect, though I still don't crimp severely, finding that .469" is more than enough for all my guns including my gas-operated AR.

Oh, and the Kimber got a little judicious application of JB Weld on the slide just underneath the extractor and is now able to feed SWCs much better, and surprisingly, now ejects in a much more consistent manner, not hitting me in the bridge of the nose with one out of every magazine (I shoot left-handed for those who don't know).

 

[Pistolero]

Good news! That Kimber needs to have the factory put a new slide on it, it is clearly a factory defect, and
I think this verifies it. Seems like it would be worth a phone call to see if their customer
service is up to par.

Most guns are happy with .468-.469, I add a few thousandths to account for variations,
dirt, etc. Seems like people are really allergic to the "overcrimping" unicorn.

Sounds like a real improvement, very glad I could assist. No magic, but a few useful tricks.

Bill

 

[GaryN]

I'm a relative newbie when talking about the 45 acp. I bought a SR1911 Ruger a couple of years ago. I have since loaded and shot about 2000 rounds. I read up quite a bit about loading for it before actually doing it. I crimp to .469.I crimp as a separate stage in loading. Never had one not pass the plunk test because of crimp size. The only fail to feeds that I had were caused by Ruger mags. Someday I may try to fix the Ruger mags. They let a round out too early. Then the gun jams when trying to chamber two rounds. When I figured out what was going on I bought Wilson mags. They have been 100% reliable. I have The Mihec 452-200 hollowpoint mold and an Accurate clone of the H&G 68. I have been thinking of a 230 grain mold also. My most accurate loads have been with the H&G 68 and Titegroup powder. You can really tell a difference. I also had Dougguy work over the throat . I was having to load my rounds very short before I did that. Under 1.200. Now what I am concentrating on is the sights. They have never been right. The pistol suffered from the problem of losing the sight. Twice. After shooting about 70 rounds and still new the front sight just broke off. I sent it back and they replaced the sight. Then this last summer it broke off again. I decided that was enough of that. I bought a night sight and put it on. No problems at all now. A lot of what I went through was just from ignorance about the gun. But it was fun to get to know it. Now I just shoot it. I have also tried Bullseye,Reddot,Unique,CFE Pistol. The CFE Pistol seems to really push the bullets fast but I have to chronograph them to make sure. The published data claims 1142 @ the top end with 200 grain bullets but we will see. I am working on a defense load since this is my carry pistol now.

 

[Pistolero]

Yes, my recommended load is H&G 68 (try .451 and .452, one may be more accurate) over 4.8 of TG for a nice,
powerful, accurate IPSC load. Lower that to about 3.9 or 4.0, for a match load - depending on the individual gun (I have
a couple that will work reliably with 3.5 gr with full power springs)

Try 1.250 and .465 or so on your TC before you go an modify your barrel (advice for others, I realize yours has
been done). My Ruger SR1911 has never failed to digest this load, dead stock. TC and LOA are critical, most folks somehow
lock in on LOA, will not put a proper TC on the round, even if it won't chamber. ??????

I am amazed that folks are so resistant to a few thousandths more TC, which is critical for reliable chambering in some
guns. What is the reasoning here?

 

[RicinYakima]

I am amazed that folks are so resistant to a few thousandths more TC, which is critical for reliable chambering in some
guns. What is the reasoning here?

I believe that it is a hold over from the days of worn out US 1911A1's. The reloading manuals said it would be the end of the world, then known to man, if the case mouth would touch the throat. Since the extractor will not let that happen, it is a mute point. "If it won't feed, you might as well have a rock."

 

[Ian]

Generally, over-crimping (particularly with taper crimp) cartridges loaded with cast bullets is deleterious on a number of levels. Accuracy being one, as the round rattles around in the chamber like a BB in a boxcar. Gas blowby early in the firing cycle before the bullet's base can seal the throat is another, where lube blowout and throat/bore leading can occur to mention failures to go into battery due to lube accumulation in the chamber from excess cartridge/chamber clearance. Overworking the brass and premature split necks/mouths is another thing. I've shot .45 ACP brass until the headstamp was obliterated by dozens of ejector dings and only ever had one split case (due to something else), and I usually only "crimp" enough to iron out the bellmouth, sometimes not even that much if the chamber permits, and many of them do. I have no long-term experience crimping to .465-6" to know if it shortens brass life or not.

So yes, I'm reluctant to use the case mouth to swage a crimp groove into my bullets, usually I shoot RN bullets so crimping hard makes a big ring in them. I shot IDPA for a couple of years and never had a single failure...crimping Lee TL-230-2R bullets at .471". The two different Kimbers and one SA long-slide that I used all had extremely "generous" chambers and throats.

 

[PatMarlin]

Interesting article by Grant Cunningham on food grade Lubriplate. That's what I use on my machines, mainly for the non toxic benefit, but it was interesting to read how great a lubricant it is. Didn't know that. Nice.

What alloys are you guys using, and is it worth gas checking the 45 at all? Thinking plain base? I only own one 1911 I purchased new, had an old friend from my home town, Gunsmith Dale Martenia who was an accomplished custom 45 smith, go through it and do his magic to it. Have only fired maybe 3 mags through it. I want to get my CCW and need to get going on the 1911. My dad used them all through the service and had 70's gold cups I fired some as a kid.

 

[Pistolero]

Ian,
I rarely disagree with you, but in this situation, my experience and logic makes
me unable to agree with any of those points.

How can an undersized ("overcrimped") strip at the case mouth only about .020-.030 wide
with the rest of the case exactly the same as with any other crimp cause the round to "rattle around in
the chamber"? Radially the case body is the same, axially you still have plenty of case mouth
to hit the step at the end of the chamber.

Doesn't make sense to me. "Excessive case chamber clearance"? Again, this is only for a
very short portion of the case mouth, and it is only .004-.005 smaller on diameter (.002-.0025
on radius) different. That is a very small difference, really. Completely removed at firing.

I have many hundreds of .45 ACP cases with the headstamp hammered essentially smooth and
have been taper crimping to .464-.466 since about 1982, some of that brass has been in the
rotation that long. Literally hundreds of reloads on a case. Almost never have a case fail. No harm to brass
at all. Remember only .002 or so extra movement at the case mouth.

"Crimping hard" does not make a ring if you use a separate taper crimp die, that is the point.
It is not a good practice, no matter how many dies sets have been sold, to seat and crimp in
the same die without a good, big crimp groove like a Keith design.

Try 25 rounds or so with a .465 TC with your new die, you will at least find that there is no
harm, may find the improved feeding that many others have found.

PatMarlin,
As to alloys, I find that wheelweights works great, not a pistol that I own, including absolute
maximums in .44 Mag and .357 Mag that need a gas check, and the .45 ACP would be the
last. Plain base is all you will ever need in .45 ACP. Proper fit is the key, followed by a good lube.
Try .452 first, some guns prefer .451 and are slightly more accurate, but most like .452 very well.
9mm diameters are crazy, all over the map but .45 ACP seems to be super consistent on groove
diam so .452 is almost certain to be at least very good, likely best.
4.8 of TG under an H&G 68 (sub a 452460 is fine) is a personal favorite, my IPSC load for decades.
452460 molds have a significantly variable nose shape, all are shorter nose than H&G 68, which
has it's front meplat corner on the curve of a ball round, so feeds extremely reliably. 452460s are
a bit less reliable in feeding due to shorter overall round length, although many guns digest them
perfectly, too. My best 50 yd groups come with MP 200 RN HP mold, basically a 452374 design with
a HP, so it winds up 200 gr instead of 225 gr.

 

[PatMarlin]

Thanks Ian...

I have quite a few special 45 molds from the (old) LEE group buy days over at CB, for the 1911. Have to dig them out and see what they were. I think one was the HG clone if I remember correctly.

 

[yodogsandman]

This is all good stuff to know! Hunting season is done around here so, time to get back into it.

I found that by seating and crimping in the same operation, it could be done but, most times left a lead ring from it if it wasn't just so. The shaved lead ring was pushed in front of the crimp or just under the case mouth. I've acquired a taper crimp die now and separating the two operations seems to be a better option. I haven't shot any of those yet, though.

Setting the taper crimp to .470", the rounds did not reliably function all the time. About 25% had to push the slide forward to get them to shoot. With the taper crimp set at .468" everything fed good but, set the taper crimp die to .465" because reliability is paramount. I'm using cheap mixed H/S brass and won't worry about a split case mouth now and then.

So far, I like the groups I'm getting with the Lyman 452460 with 4.2gr Bullseye, followed by the NOE 453-200 SWC, H&G 68 clone. Next best is the Lyman 452374 and Lee 452-230 TC using 5.0gr Bullseye. I have some NOE 453-230 RN (H&G 34 clone) loaded up with 5.0gr Bullseye to try next.

 

[Pistolero]

Glad you are having good results. I agree 100% that 452460 with 4-4.2 range of either BE or TG is
a good match load in most guns. Some guns will group a touch better with H&G 130, or a few prefer the
H&G 68, but generally 452460 or H&G 130 is a hair better than the H&G 68. Most guns like .452 diam,
but some will group a bit better with .451. If you are looking for every advantage, try both, but don't
expect a lot, may take 5 or 10 groups to start to be able to tell the difference.

Thanks for verifying what I have been promoting for years. .470 crimp is not going to be 100% reliable in
many guns. .465 or so with proper LOA on an H&T 68 will work in any 1911 that I have ever seen, which
is a very large number of guns during 30+ yrs of IPSC competition.

Bill

 

[yodogsandman]

I just want these loads to be reliable in my sons Ruger and my brothers Colt, also. Without any info on the correct cartridge overall length for the NOE molds and having the 452374 too long to fit my throat using Lymans suggestion, set the COAL using the "ker plunk" test method and using the longest digestible length.

I guess I should mention that the Lyman 452460 casts just a hair under .452" and when sizing, is just barely scuffed in a few spots. Maybe this gun likes .451"? Guess I'll try a .451" sizer, too. I've been using the Lee push thru .452" and really like how much faster sizing goes. I've been sizing dry with it and then adding 1 coat of BLL.

 

[Pistolero]

.451 diam is worth a try, but most of the time the difference is pretty small. The plunk test
is the correct way to get LOA and TC set correctly.

I think that leaving .470 or so diam on the case mouth winds up scraping crud off the chamber
walls as it feeds in. I think this builds up and slows down the round, sometimes preventing
it from fully chambering. Seems like about .468 or .467 it stops scraping, sliding over the
crud and chambers well. I give it a few extra thousandths for good measure, shooting for
.466 or .465.

Bill

 

[Ian]

Bill, I can only speak from my own experience with some apparently very unusual guns. In post #32 I was mostly giving some general, across-the-the-board explanations for why I in particular shy away from any advice to severely crimp ANY cast bullet load, to include your excellent advice regarding 1911s. In fact I did try your methods with my Redding die and found mixed results with two of my 1911s, some of which I was outlining.....increased group size, some throat leading, even some slight indications of keyholing at 25 yards. My Redding die actually swages the whole front band of a MP 45-200 SWC so badly at .466" that the whole cartridge is misaligned in the chamber enough to shave the bullets on one side of the throat. I also noticed lead scrapings and lube accumulation in the chamber and on case mouths after only a magazine full. I guess my chambers are large enough that they depend on the case mouth support to seal and to guide the bullet into the throat without scraping. I use a carbide die and .4515" bullets which allows for a LOT of side clearance of chamber to cartridge, so I sort of count on the bell to at least center the front. Throats on both pistols tested are so generous that I have to make OAL beyond magazine capacity before the front band will pilot the cartridge in the throats.

If applying any significant crimp, roll or otherwise, I do so in a separate operation. Even with my "cowboy" loads and bullets with deep crimp grooves, I crimp so the mouth lies against the slope of the groove and as close to the front of the groove as possible because the bullets need support both directions for my tube-fed rifles AND my revolvers. To swage the case and most of the front band down 5-8 thousandths without a crimp groove moves a lot of metal and in effect creates a crimp groove in the front band of the bullet, something that gives me the "willies". If the cartridge requires that much crimp, a pre-cast groove is in order. Further, after a couple of years shooting IDPA and having no stoppages of any kind that I can remember (using magazines the pistols liked and Lee TL-45-230-2R) and only 'crimping' to around .471-2" at most, having no leading and very good accuracy, you can see why I'm dis-inclined to change anything. What I WILL say is crimping per your recommendations made magazines that previously didn't work with SWC bullets start working...so no argument from me on that account and I'm glad to have the knowledge you've shared.

I just did an experiment with both the pistols I shot in IDPA, an SA long-slide and my Kimber Tac Pro II. Both will chamber a bullet with .477" bellmouth. How about that? No wonder. My AR-45 gets tight chambering one crimped to .471". I also checked my wife's M&P .45 and it will accept .472" with some scrapage right at lockup, but it feeds my taper-crimped .468" dummies with SWC, rebated RN and full RN bullets much better than my usual .471" load, without those little hitches and glitches through the cycle. I tried some crimped to .466" and it was even better. Haven't shot any so crimped through it yet though, only through my 1911s and haven't tried the GMM 1911 yet, either.

So, bottom line is I have tens of thousands of rounds through two pistols upon which I base my opinions and prejudices, which I offer just as an explanation of my opinions, not as an argument against your vast and more common experience. Yeah, I'm stubborn about crimp and hope that I've explained how I became entrenched in my thoughts on that (together with my experiences with .40 S&W and .45 Super), though I'll try anything once in hopes that I learn something, and I have learned a lot about this from you. Seems those two pistols are atypical in several ways and I'd better not presume ammo made for them is going to work with similar reliability in other guns.

Oh, and the Kimber slide, I ran that by one of our local gunsmiths who is also a Kimber armorer (I bought this pistol new from him years ago) and he pulled out his carry pistol to show me it was made the same way. "Not a problem" was what he said, and basically called me stupid and crazy for shooting lead bullets in one. Yeah, ok.