20:1 question

Chris C

Active Member
I've a question...........not a dumb one, but an absolute newbie question.

I've never mixed or cast with a 20:1 alloy before. Carefully calculated and mixed some today. I presently run the "unknown" alloy I've been using for the last year at 700*. Does 20:1 run better at a specific temp or should I just jump in the pool and start swimming?:D
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
The purpose of using Sn is it reduces the surface tension of the alloy flowing into the mold and enables it to fill in the details of the mold well. It also adds minor hardness to the alloy. 100 years ago it was the primary method of hardening lead but it is quite limited in it's ability to harden. The metallurgy of Sn is that getting up to and past 750 degrees it looses it's ability to reduce the surface tension. Sn also lowers the melting temp of lead. Lead melts at 621 degrees, your 1% Sn will reduce that melt temp to well below 600. Conventional wisdom says to use a pot temp that's 100 degrees above full liquidus temp. Casting at 700 degrees would fill that bill nicely. In fact I cast with most all alloys at 700 degrees, I'll bump that up slightly to about 720 for tiny bullets in larger blocks and/or hollow point bullets.
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Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Yes, excuse my brain fade while typing that without thinking. Any way my point was that the Sn will reduce the melt temp well below 600 degrees.
 

Chris C

Active Member
So melt temp is well below 600*, so 100* above that would be around 700*. Okay, that's where I'll start when I get back to casting.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Tin flash-oxidizes instantly on the surface of molten lead-based alloy. Tin oxide is much more thin, light, weak, and flexible than lead oxide, therefore it allows the molten, UNoxidized metal beneath to flow without the effects of its own surface tension. Think lava flowing down the side of a volcanic atoll, the hardened crust impedes the flow and must continuously crack and break apart to allow the molten lava beneath to flow. Same thing with a pot of alloy, but on a microscopic level. The properties of tin allow the metal to effectively flow more smoothly and conform to finer contours as Rick said.

The other property tin adds to lead is it alters and breaks up the long, linear planes of the lead crystal dendrites that form as lead solidifies and cools. In a lead/tin/antimony mix, tin and antimony will bond to each other up to about a 1:1 ratio, effectively making a new element in the mix called SbSn. Sb/Sn brings some very unique reinforcing properties to the lead dendrite matrix, making the alloy even more strong and "hard". High Sb with low Sn make an alloy which has distinct, long shear planes but is strong in cross, section, akin to a coarse-grained wood like yellow pine. It will split easily, but not bend easily. If more antimony than tin is present, the alloy will consist of mostly lead intermixed with Sb, and interlaced with Sb/Sn. If more tin than antimony is present, the alloy will consist mostly of lead intermixed with Sb/Sn and a lot of free tin "nodules", which can be problematic and should be avoided, so keep your tin exactly at or less than the amount of antimony in the mix. Ternary eutectic mixes such as Lyman #2 and some of the pseudo-eutectic blends like Taracorp Magnum and some others have a very small temperature window within which the "mush phase" occurs when freezing, so there is less precipitation hardening going to take place after cooling due to the dendrites being captured in a moment in time. With less eutectic alloys, the ability to heat treat and for long-term precipitation hardening to occur is greatly increased. Lead/tin binary alloys tend to be what they are, have no significant ability to heat treat, and tend to be stable strength-wise from the day you cast them until years later. This can be an advantage, but it can also be a limitation because the short, fine dendrites of the mix give the alloy a non-directional, mushy characteristic, like silly putty. Lead/tin is very malleable, but not as ductile as alloys with antimony in them because of the nature of the crystal matrix antimony makes within the structure of the metal. The structure of the antimony/lead matrix is also why antimony can add so much more toughness and hardness to lead than can tin alone.

All of these different percentages of Pb, Sb, and Sn or just Pb and Sn have different properties which can work for you, or against you in your bullet-launching efforts. Understanding what each constituent does or doesn't do, and how the sum total of your particular mix will react to the particular choice of powder lit behind it, is a big part of getting good groups. Sometimes, there is a broad range of different combinations of alloy and powder that will work well with a given bullet shape and throat shape, sometimes there are very few or maybe even just one, if you can find it. Determining what to use starts with the chamber and throat of the rifle and the intended ballistics of the load. Then the bullet shape is selected which one anticipates will cooperate to those ends, together or sometimes after the alloy of choice is made. Alloy is primarily a choice of propellant type, velocity and range, and terminal considerations. If you aren't concerned with anything except killing paper, steel, or other targets of amusement, your alloy and velocity windows automatically become larger than someone who, for example, needs a minimum of 2K fps muzzle velocity, an alloy that will offer good terminal ballistics at 16-1800 fps when it reaches the target, and reliable 1.5 MOA maximum dispersion out to 200 yards.

When casting, Rick pretty much described what I do a lot of the time. About 100°F above the full-liquidus point of the alloy, plus some if trying to get more heat into the mould beyond that of the fastest casting pace I can comfortably maintain. Bullet fillout and bullet quality are almost entirely a product of consistent and correct mould temperature, which of course is a function of mostly casting pace and to a much lesser degree a function of the temperature of the metal being poured. .22 bullets in a set of big, brass blocks will drive you nuts trying to keep hot with a bottom-pour pot. Most binary alloys at 20:1 or more rich with tin practically fill the blocks on their own just past the liquid point of temperature, so there's no need for an extremely hot mould OR alloy, in fact sometimes 16:1 fills TOO well and there is a constant fight with vent line whiskers, clogs, and little whisker remains sticking to the block faces. Also, binary lead/tin alloy loves to "tin" shiny new mould blocks, after all it is basically solder.
 
9

9.3X62AL

Guest
Threads like this one are why I appreciate being invited to this site.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
you skipped the part about just antimony in the alloy. :p

there is another part to the alloys and that is how they act under pressure.

also adding other metals to the alloy will interact to/with the SbSn chain and quite often depending on which one you add will determine which way you want the SbSn chain to go.
copper you want more antimony.
zinc means more tin.
[tin will migrate away from the lead and go to the zinc btw.]

it also pulls away from the SbSn chain if more tin is present and tries in utter futility to re bond with and re-wet the surface of the excess lead as it cools down in the mold, that is where the hard spots of tin come from.
tin is also useful to get other metals into a lead alloy because of it's surface wetting capability.
copper and raw antimony can be introduced into a lead alloy easier by using a higher tin content.
 

Chris C

Active Member
Thank God I was told about this site. What you guys are trying to teach me sounds like Greek to my ears, but I'm amazed there are people who actually understand all of it. And thanks for your willingness to open up and share it. I feel like a Kindergarten student with Master's Class professors as instructors. Sure hope my feeble brain can absorb enough of all of it to help me.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
It's pretty easy to get wrapped around the axle with some of this stuff. I did a study several years ago of non ferrous metals by reading papers from the metals industry on how and why they treat lead alloys because there wasn't any web sites like this, some of that stuff can make ya cross eyed. The bottom line is that as bullet casters we do not need to be metallurgists but an understanding of the basics is a good thing and will help us understand what is really going on with our alloys. It will make getting results with different alloys used in different calibers/firearms, different pressures/velocities far easier by understanding why something did or did not work as anticipated. Refine as much as possible down to the basics that apply to bullet casting.

Enjoy the ride and get some of those loads fired, were all waiting on your results.
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Chris C

Active Member
Due to the way my range is laid out, my targets go in the shadow of the sun past high noon................so I typically like to shoot in the mornings. My property is long and narrow, so my backstop is on the West end.........not ideal, I realize, but the only safe direction I can fire. I'm headed to the gym right now, so today is out. (besides, it's too cool, wet and windy to enjoy shooting) Tomorrow I'm helping a friend move two project cars from storage to his home/shop, so tomorrow is shot. (no pun intended) Friday is supposed to be warmer and the wind much less than today. I might forgo the Gym Friday and run 'em downrange.
 

Ian

Notorious member
you skipped the part about just antimony in the alloy. :p

Yeah, I know. :D Heeled bullets and jacketed cores need an extrudable alloy, and tin mucks up the flow. I also skipped the part about grain refiners and true fluxes.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
I was just looking at them. When it comes to lube Ian, Brad and Fiver are your guys. Would be pretty hard to believe anyone has done more lube testing than those three.
 

Chris C

Active Member
I was just looking at them. When it comes to lube Ian, Brad and Fiver are your guys. Would be pretty hard to believe anyone has done more lube testing than those three.
Thanks, that's good info to know. I still can't figure out what he saw in the targets that lead him to post me.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Chris, look at the holes in your targets. Notice some are black around the holes, most aren't? That black is junk pushed out of the bore by a passing bullet. If all are black of even tone then it isn't bad.
One key to good accuracy is consistency of bore condition. As Pete put it "Consitency of residue encountered" or CORE. Variations in black rings around holes means you have variations in bore condition within a group.
This is a sign your lube is laying down residue then every few rounds getting purged by a passing bullet. The cycle repeats.
Try this. Record shot location, velocity, and look at the hole "color". Also record the shot sequence. In time a pattern will emerge. Some lubes purge every 5-7 shots or so.
Once you see what happens as a pattern you can begin to look for ways to prevent the pattern and develop consistency.

Speaking of Pete, why isn't he here?
 

Chris C

Active Member
Gee, Brad, I never knew that. I'll ditch my lube like Ian suggested and mix up some Beeswax and Vaseline.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I invited Pete seems like a year or so ago but he takes spells of disappearing from the internet. Since Joe bailed on Arne's forum and cleared the CB section I haven't seen him at all, but haven't looked elsewhere in a while, either.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Gee, Brad, I never knew that. I'll ditch my lube like Ian suggested and mix up some Beeswax and Vaseline.
Until a few years ago neither did I!

I used to be blissfullly ignorant and just cast and shot. Then I started to communicate with people like Ian, fiver, and Rick. Changed my outlook on things. I learned to cast a better bullet and understand what was happening.

I can assure you that the right lube doesn't always make groups smaller but the wrong one will certainly make them bigger!