20:1 question

[Chris C]

I've so darned much to learn Brad. It's embarrassing how little I know..........when I honestly thought I was a whole lot more learned than I am! At least I'm not too timid to admit my ignorance and ask for guidance. I'm willing to learn...........everyone has to start somewhere!

 

[Brad]

Problem is that the more you learn the more you realize how much you don't know!
View it as a progressive quest for knowledge. As you learn you have more questions. Find ways to answer those questions which interest you.
Whatever you do make sure it remains fun. I can assure you that shooting large numbers of rounds to test various lubes quickly becomes work.

When anyone tells me they don't know where to start a large project I always ask the same question. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

 

[Ian]

Brad said a mouthful about the more you learn. The more I learn is just more about what I need to learn more about.

This isn't a race, and nobody here is worried about what "level" anyone else is on. I did it all wrong for 20 years before some of these fellows were generous enough to start helping me on the path from where I was to where I wanted to be. Most of it I picked up just from reading and then trying things I read about, but when I really got stumped, someone with more experience would usually point me in the right direction. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and often there are also a great number of different ways to accomplish the same goal, so not everyone's advice or experiences will be the same.

 

[Brad]

And never forget that each firearm type has unique needs and problems.
Ian and I came up with a lube that is downright awesome in a handgun and a horrendous mess in a rifle. Pressure over a length of barrel leaves some gawd awful fouling. Never shows in handguns due to shot barrel, in rifles it leaves a residue that isn't fun to remove.

You are doing a fine job already. Keep having fun and asking questions. An inquisitive mind is one of the most critical things required to learn.

 

[RicinYakima]

"I can assure you that the right lube doesn't always make groups smaller but the wrong one will certainly make them bigger!"

I always high light this when he writes it because it is so true. Those of us who shoot below 1600 f/s at paper have it easy. Those that hunt with soft bullets or want to go over 2000 f/s, really have to be careful and experiment.

 

[Chris C]

And never forget that each firearm type has unique needs and problems.
Ian and I came up with a lube that is downright awesome in a handgun and a horrendous mess in a rifle. Pressure over a length of barrel leaves some gawd awful fouling. Never shows in handguns due to shot barrel, in rifles it leaves a residue that isn't fun to remove.

You are doing a fine job already. Keep having fun and asking questions. An inquisitive mind is one of the most critical things required to learn.

Thanks, Brad, I needed that!

 

[Brad]

We all need it. It is easy to get down on yourself. This should all be fun.
I too am pretty new at this stuff. Until 5 years ago or so I just cast and shot. No real thought went into it. Then I started asking questions. I look back at things I now can see we where I went wrong in the past and just didn't see the signs.

We all have that little thing at makes us wonder and seek answers. Yours is a rifle and bullet. Mine was cold barrel flyers in my 32-20.

Trust me, nobody here is or will judge you. We may ask tough questions but we will always respect a guy who wants to learn. That is why this forum exists.

 

[Chris C]

Much appreciated, Brad.........seriously.

 

[Ian]

"I can assure you that the right lube doesn't always make groups smaller but the wrong one will certainly make them bigger!"

I always high light this when he writes it because it is so true. Those of us who shoot below 1600 f/s at paper have it easy. Those that hunt with soft bullets or want to go over 2000 f/s, really have to be careful and experiment.

So true. During the epic and anti-climactic "Quest for Extreme lube" we kept reiterating that a good cast bullet lube should be "transparent" to group dispersion. If we could do without it, we'd be better off because there is nothing inherent to the properties of bullet lube that can make a rifle shoot better, only subtract more or less from base line.

 

[Chris C]

Then answer this, Ian: If you want an extreme lube to be transparent, (I'm assuming that means to impart as little lubrication as is necessary to provide an adequate lubrication to the bullet) then tell me why staight Vaseline wouldn't fit that requirement.

 

[RBHarter]

In mechanic speak viscosity. It's to runny . By ingredients Bag Balm should be a great BP lube right out of the can.

 

[Brad]

It also would melt out at higher temps, who wants greasy ammo? Adding beeswax reduces viscosity and increases melt point.

 

[Chris C]

Okay. I'm with you. So I want a lube that is viscous enough to stay with the bullet until it leaves the barrel, but thin enough to be "spent" at that same point..............leaving no black smudges on the peripheral of my bullet holes?????

 

[Ian]

Then answer this, Ian: If you want an extreme lube to be transparent, (I'm assuming that means to impart as little lubrication as is necessary to provide an adequate lubrication to the bullet) then tell me why staight Vaseline wouldn't fit that requirement.

Because it turns liquid at body temperature, and it has very little extreme-pressure property to assist hard engraving of tough alloys at high velocity, and there isn't enough wax or metal soap gellant to prop up the viscosity at any kind of decent velocity past the first few inches of barrel, it's too stiff when frozen, and in a lot of instances a controlled amount of something with extreme-pressure, hydrodynamic film properties is necessary to prevent excessive driving-side land erosion....Vaseline having virtually none.

 

[Ian]

Okay. I'm with you. So I want a lube that is viscous enough to stay with the bullet until it leaves the barrel, but thin enough to be "spent" at that same point..............leaving no black smudges on the peripheral of my bullet holes?????

The black rings is from goop picked up by the bullet that was left behind from the last shot. In your last load workup there were some ink-black rings, and some barely showing any. What does that tell you about what your lube and powder are leaving behind in the bore?

 

[Chris C]

I guess either there is too much lube or it's the wrong kind of lube. You mentioned lubing only one groove. Never heard of that or seen anyone do it before..........were you serious or just kidding?

 

[Rick]

That is serious. With todays modern lubes many bullets carry too much lube. and it's fairly common depending on the lube used, the bullet, velocity pressure to only lube one or two grooves. I don't know anyone that lubes all of the grooves on a 315.

 

[Chris C]

Okay, then I think on this next test of 30 rounds, I'll lube two grooves on 10, bottom groove on 10 and top groove on ten and see what happens. I'm also going to number the holes in sequence on each target.

 

[RicinYakima]

Well, I won the CBA National's Military Modified Iron Sight class only lubing the space above the gas-check with Grey #24. Never cleaned or had leading in 120 records shots, plus foulers and sighters. Of course I had been practicing for 200 shots prior to the match without cleaning, so bore was stable once it was warm.

 

[Ian]

I guess either there is too much lube or it's the wrong kind of lube.

But why, within multiple shot strings, would some of your bullet holes have black rings and some barely grey smudges? What is happening to cause that?