.35 Remington and powder coated bullets

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Ian,

Any chance you have a weak mainspring? I got huge vertical stringing in a
Win 86 Extra Lt a few years back due to darned redesigned firing pin (locking latch
inside the pin!) and rebounding, lightened hammer. Reduced the rebound and retimed
the FP latch and it is much better. Serious vertical stringing, like 12"V x 2"H groups
happened repeatedly. Poor ignition could do this. Mine had really light and inconsistent
primer indents.

Bill
 

Ian

Notorious member
I really don't think so, Bill, but that is an interesting experience you had and is duly filed away in my head.

After shooting another 20 rounds on Saturday using 30 grains of RX-7 and getting almost identical results I'm pointing to the incomplete forearm bedding job and the loose nut behind the buttstock as the causes. This rifle is really like holding a wet fish, and I never could get comfortable enough with it on the bags to expect anything better than what I've been getting. It did put three into the same hole again on the first group with one way high and one way low. This is very frustrating to me because I can control my straight-stocked 336 .30-30 to achieve easy sub-moa groups at 100 yards with full-power ammunition, but this slick-finished, slick-butted, pistol-grip stock and super-loose forearm won't let me get consistently into 2" at 50 and I know it's mostly me. It doesn't help that my 50-yard backstop is very significantly up hill, something like 20° from horizontal and the bench is level.
 
F

freebullet

Guest
That forend sounds like a special situation. We're the rx7 loads powder coated? Find any black gunk of death in the bore?
 

Ian

Notorious member
Yep, powder coated, in fact this time with a different color (yucky gold-fleck red that turns Longhorn orange when baked) and no gunk in the very rough bore. By "very rough" look at the photo back in the first post, the grooves are cut cleanly but the bore looks like it was done with a very dull tool run at too high of a speed. The serrations left on top of the lands have always tended to collect lube, bullet metal, and at one time in a previous owner's life, gilding metal. I'm almost sorry I cleaned all the copper out.

Years ago, when I first acquired this 1954 specimen and found it in very poor working condition, I set about correcting the problems with the metal. The lever was bent and wouldn't close, when straightened, it wouldn't mate with the detent plunger, in fact never ever had because the bluing of the plunger and detent groove was immaculate. The trigger block still doesn't work. The insides of the receiver appeared to have been carved out with a chain saw, and the outside finished with a farrier's rasp, including the bottom front receiver screw which though clearly original due to matching with the shaping scratches on the bottom of the receiver, had been selected from the side-screw bin and only held about 1.5 threads when the rifle left the factory. As a result, when the oil rotted buttstock crumbled at the wrist and likely the tang screw was over-tightened in an attempt to secure it, the short screw pulled the threads on the bottom of the receiver. I had to re-fit the bottom metal anyway since huge machining burrs hadn't allowed it to seat properly. The magazine tube had been dented and crinkled by a poor attempt to fasten and then remove a crimp-on sling swivel base. The barrel band at the forearm was so tight that the forearm had to be squeezed in a vise to get the screw through it. Also, the forearm didn't fit the receiver or the barrel so it hung too low, too far forward, and was shaped crooked (a very noticeable feature of this "perch belly" example). The front barrel band didn't have a screw because none would fit it; the thing was made too small and the barrel spread it so badly that all known reproduction screws were too short. The ejector groove in the bolt was so rough that it took a great deal of force to shuck out a shell. The only good thing I could say is the rifle was absolutely free of rust and most of the finish wear was honest carry wear, the barrel and crown were and are quite decent.

So, after sorting out the metal issues to functional if not cosmetic satisfaction, I fitted the birch buttstock that was sold to me with the rifle and bedded it with Acraglas and a steel sleeve to fully support the receiver tangs. The forearm needed much relieving and I set about preparing it for a Paco Kelly free-float and RTV silicone and bedding job, again to be functional and not in the least bit cosmetic. If you are familiar with that process, including manufacturing a recoil lug for the forearm and re-engineering the forward magazine tube mount with a strong dovetail, you'll understand why I relieved so much wood and why the forearm is so loose now. Life happened somewhere along in there and I ended up just putting the thing back together so it would shoot and haven't done much with it since. Last year I put a decent Weaver 40/44 scope on it via Leupold QD rings and base so I could still shoot it with irons. I did a few load workups and deemed it good enough for shooting a deer across the yard if necessary and left it at that, meaning to get back to it someday. Having caught the AR-15 and NFA bug shortly after that and since having recovered somewhat, the project has piqued my interest again, so here we are. Really what did it was a small and innocent comment from our none other than Glen regarding the fairly recent 358-200 addition to the Lee mould line, and as fortune would have it my MidwayUSA cart was about $20 shy of the next discount incentive, so naturally I picked one up.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Betcha Acraglas could tighten that forend up. I wonder if BLL can be used as a release agent?

I may glass the part where it fits the receiver, since most of the wood removed there was to roll the forearm around to sit correctly. From the factory, the tenon was cut significantly off-center and the whole thing was crooked and bound the magazine tube badly. The part that touches the barrel needs to be cushioned in a silicone bed with the end of the magazine tube set about 1/8" away from its mount so there is a slight pre-load when the magazine screw is snugged down. Also, the forearm barrel band is relieved so that it will not touch the barrel at all when the forearm is bedded in place, but is just for looks. All that is done so that pressure and load is constant on the barrel through recoil and temperature cycles, and it helps stanch odd vibrations which make leverguns so notoriously inaccurate or makes them "walk" groups in a string.
 

Chris

Well-Known Member
Ian, I've been thinking about doing either the Paco or Mic McPherson work on the forend of an 1894. Do you think Paco's recoil lug, i.e. a rod fitting into a groove put in the barrel, is worth doing? McPherson pretty much just glass beds and uses a lot of RTV silicon.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Chris, I don't really know, haven't done the rod thing before so I have nothing to compare to. Sitting firmly astraddle this fence is the main reason I never finished the work on this rifle.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I have McPhersons book. Used the RTV a fair bit. It is all over my 30-30 and the Marlin 44 mag. The 44 mag has more binding and bending that it deserves. The forend tip was forced into place. The forearm wasn't much better. The magazine tube got filed a bit to eliminate barrel contact and that junction now wears RTV as well.
I need to bed the forearm/receiver junction a little to snug it up.
What I really want to do is rebarrel the gun with a faster twist and eliminate the front barrel band. Make it a 1/2 magazine with the front end of the magazine held in place by a dovetailed tenon in barrel.
 

Kevin Stenberg

Well-Known Member
Ian with all of the problems you have found in your Marlin. Could they have TRIED to make 1 rifle with a mish mash of bad parts. Just to see if it would pass through QC. I would sure hope not.
 

Chris

Well-Known Member
I have McPhersons book. Used the RTV a fair bit. It is all over my 30-30 and the Marlin 44 mag. The 44 mag has more binding and bending that it deserves. The forend tip was forced into place. The forearm wasn't much better. The magazine tube got filed a bit to eliminate barrel contact and that junction now wears RTV as well.
I need to bed the forearm/receiver junction a little to snug it up.
What I really want to do is rebarrel the gun with a faster twist and eliminate the front barrel band. Make it a 1/2 magazine with the front end of the magazine held in place by a dovetailed tenon in barrel.

Ian and Brad, I'm thinking a glass bedding the forearm junction at the receiver and maybe 1.5" of barrel channel might do as well as the rod? You think?

Then RTV the rest of it via McPherson technique. Including, of course, relieving mag tube and barrel rings. Also he increases the hole size for the screw (to relieve touching and stress) as it passes through the mag tube by the end of the barrel... vs. Paco method of making a dovetail attachment (this seems better). Opinion?

Unfortunately I bedded the buttstock and tang and totally spaced out somehow and have got glass holding the stock screw. Crap now what.

FYI Brad, I just emailed John Taylor who said he can reline the barrel to other twists for about $450. Not cheap but a quality rebarrel job will be 3 times that, I bet.
 

Chris

Well-Known Member
Can someone post a link to any articals concerning the McPherson book or the Paco system?

Link to Paco below. I have the McPherson in book form... worth owning but not cheap. Can't really post any stuff from it is copywrited and he makes his living this way... unless a mod says using a bit is "fair use".

Maybe some online book sellers can provide a used one at affordable price?

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/chapter23.htm

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/chapter23.htm
 

Ian

Notorious member
Most Marlins have a notch filed across the bottom of the barrel where the forearm band screw goes. This is the only thing keeping the forearm from slipping forward under recoil. Most of these screws and notches are peened from recoil slap, which makes a slide-hammer effect and screws the accuracy pooch unless you pull that forearm back into the receiver and hold it there during recoil. If you relieve the notch so the screw floats, the forearm will slap back and forth as much as the room you relieve the hole. The only way to stop that is either key the forearm to the barrel or glue it to the magazine tube.

I'm thinking about doing this in several steps.

1. Dovetail a hardened insert under the muzzle and drill the magazine tube for a screw to hole it. Use a Nylon spacer between barrel and tube so they can squirm around a little, but not too much.

2. Fit the magazine tube to the receiver using epoxy, but wrap the tube with a few layers of masking tape first and later bush the fit with a strip of rubber or a stack of thin o-rings.

3. Wrap the barrel in a few layers of tape for spacing and epoxy-bed the forearm to the magazine tube with no pre-load on the tube.

4. Remove all the tape and silicone-bed the forearm/tube to the barrel, allowing some gap at the magazine tube attachment point under the muzzle so it can be snugged later and ensure that the forearm is always pressing up on the barrel very slightly.

5. Clearance and re-install the barrel bands for appearance only; they will clamp to the magazine tube and forearm wood respectively, but not touch the barrel itself.

The problem with this is the barrel isn't truly free-floated, and ALL of the inertial moment of ammunition, forearm, tube, plunger, spring, etc. is held in check ONLY by the little screw and dovetail under the muzzle end of the barrel. I think this is a poor solution for anything that kicks hard, and a .35 Remington can have some recoil if stoked up to its potential. So I'm back to thinking about Paco's solution.

What would really be best is if the forearm tube was threaded on the outside and screwed into the front of the receiver and simply floated in a Teflon-bushed ring that was dovetailed into the barrel up by the muzzle. Then the forearm could be silicone-bedded to fit the front of the receiver and not twist around, and also be pinned and bedded to the forearm so it wouldn't slide or touch the barrel.
 

Chris

Well-Known Member
Ian, will get back later with comments as I have work ahead. However take a look at this from John Taylor's website. Seems to me this could be part of the mag tube solution, i.e. make a teflon bushing to insert in the cylinder and then epoxy the mag tube (or thread it) to the receiver. Maybe I'm not seeing this right though, pls. take a look.

http://www.johntaylormachine.com/55.0.html
 
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Chris

Well-Known Member
Most Marlins have a notch filed across the bottom of the barrel where the forearm band screw goes. This is the only thing keeping the forearm from slipping forward under recoil. Most of these screws and notches are peened from recoil slap, which makes a slide-hammer effect and screws the accuracy pooch unless you pull that forearm back into the receiver and hold it there during recoil. If you relieve the notch so the screw floats, the forearm will slap back and forth as much as the room you relieve the hole. The only way to stop that is either key the forearm to the barrel or glue it to the magazine tube.

I'm thinking about doing this in several steps.

1. Dovetail a hardened insert under the muzzle and drill the magazine tube for a screw to hole it. Use a Nylon spacer between barrel and tube so they can squirm around a little, but not too much.

2. Fit the magazine tube to the receiver using epoxy, but wrap the tube with a few layers of masking tape first and later bush the fit with a strip of rubber or a stack of thin o-rings.

3. Wrap the barrel in a few layers of tape for spacing and epoxy-bed the forearm to the magazine tube with no pre-load on the tube.

4. Remove all the tape and silicone-bed the forearm/tube to the barrel, allowing some gap at the magazine tube attachment point under the muzzle so it can be snugged later and ensure that the forearm is always pressing up on the barrel very slightly.

5. Clearance and re-install the barrel bands for appearance only; they will clamp to the magazine tube and forearm wood respectively, but not touch the barrel itself.

The problem with this is the barrel isn't truly free-floated, and ALL of the inertial moment of ammunition, forearm, tube, plunger, spring, etc. is held in check ONLY by the little screw and dovetail under the muzzle end of the barrel. I think this is a poor solution for anything that kicks hard, and a .35 Remington can have some recoil if stoked up to its potential. So I'm back to thinking about Paco's solution.

What would really be best is if the forearm tube was threaded on the outside and screwed into the front of the receiver and simply floated in a Teflon-bushed ring that was dovetailed into the barrel up by the muzzle. Then the forearm could be silicone-bedded to fit the front of the receiver and not twist around, and also be pinned and bedded to the forearm so it wouldn't slide or touch the barrel.


OK, Ian. Like your points above. My analysis is... and I expect you agree... is that the whole system of forestock, mag tube and barrel are under tension like a bunch of somehow joined strung bows. Very different matter than, say, bedding a bolt action.

So we have to isolate components that affect each other. I think your plan makes sense.

My thinking is, and as you have suggested toward the end, that we isolate the mag tube and make it as independent of the barrel as possible. Isn't this the main problem anyway?

So silver solder the mag tube to the receiver. OK, you hate that because you can't dissasemble the rifle for repair. So instead you epoxy the same together. You can melt it apart with a propane torch. Or as you suggest, frog around trying to thread the two together which is actually the best solution, but technically difficult.

So either way rigidly fix the mag tube and receiver together, put your great idea of a teflon bushing forward (maybe use the John Taylor device I linked above) on the barrel so the mag tube moves independent from the barrel. If this is rigid enough you might not need the dovetail attachment? Just let the thing be supported at the receiver and let it slide through the bushing up the barrel?

Then we can deal with how to bed the forearm and barrel. I wonder about the best way... got a hunch Paco is right but still wonder if glass bedding the receiver end alone is fine. RTV the rest of the forend, or maybe free float most of it and only RTV the bit at the forward part. I am unclear on this part.
 

Roger Allen

Active Member
I've only been able to get my 336 35 rem to shoot using 4198.
I tried lever revolution which I've read others had good luck with, but all I could get it to do was shoot 6" groups.

4198 I stumbled into it after a great struggle w ar15 300 blackout function failures. Found out 4198 fixed it. Bought a bunch.....then the 35 Remington came into the picture and so did 3/4 inch groups at 50 yards open sights w 4198 then the 45-70 came into my life and what powder??? Maybe 4198 and bam that worked too. I swear imr 4198 is a great powder especially 35 Remington Marlin lever w noe-360200 flat nose!!!
 

Kevin Stenberg

Well-Known Member
I know this is old news. But today I was working with my 336 - 35Rem an took Ian's suggestion on starting loads but went a little more conservative but I ended up in the same place. 335 powder I went with 32.5 / 33 / 33.5 / 34. An 34gr was my lucky load, All of them are good enough for hunting. But with 34 gr 4 bullets were touching and the 5th was about an 1" high
Now I just have to keep 10 shots in a group and stretch out to 100 Y.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I would watch that 5th shot for a trend.
if it shows every time then you have a heat problem.
I probably wouldn't chase it too far and just be okay with a 4 shooter.