BigBearJoe
Member
Thanks, I just wanted to make sure the 357446 mold I'm considering and would lead up my barrel as I size 357 bullets to .358"
357446 HP
- Thread starter Ben
- Start date
I have a 2 hole Ideal 357446 that is prefixed with the letter "U". I believe that this indicated "Undersized or cut with a worn cherry". I Beagled one side with a single layer of metalic duct tape and size them .358, or as my Chinese mic says ".3585". This bullet shoots quite well with 4.3 grains HP38, a load I found in an old Winchester handout. I do get slight leading at the start of the rifling on two sides 180 degrees opposed. I've always thought I may have a slight barrel pinch on my S&W 686. Now to talk about accuracy seems silly as my next birthday will be #80! But if I take my time and concentrate on the front sight, trigger squeeze and follow through I don't embarrass myself at 25 yards.
BigBearJoe
Member
Thanks for the additional info. I already have a single cavity Lyman-marked 358446 that works awesome. No leading whatsoever in my old model Ruger Blackhawk or Taurus 66 at higher velocities using 2400. This bullet works equally well in my 38 spl sixguns. This one drops at bullets at .358".
The reason for my question is that I have a shot at buying an older two-cavity Ideal mold marked 357446 (assumed older anyhow than the one I have). This one is not marked with a "U", but also has the number "120" stamped below the mold number. Does anyone know what the 120 means?If I buy the Ideal 358XXX two-cavity mold I can have my single cavity 357XXX mold modified to a HP, which is what I would like to do.
Glen's comment (from years ago on this thread) was that the 357446 mold casts a very accurate bullet, and he included a link to his article that is about the 358446 HP gifted to him by John Taffin, which is a super cool story in itself.
Anyhow, if Glen says the two are identical, I'll just have to trust his judgement.
Thanks a bunch for all of the info gentlemen
The reason for my question is that I have a shot at buying an older two-cavity Ideal mold marked 357446 (assumed older anyhow than the one I have). This one is not marked with a "U", but also has the number "120" stamped below the mold number. Does anyone know what the 120 means?If I buy the Ideal 358XXX two-cavity mold I can have my single cavity 357XXX mold modified to a HP, which is what I would like to do.
Glen's comment (from years ago on this thread) was that the 357446 mold casts a very accurate bullet, and he included a link to his article that is about the 358446 HP gifted to him by John Taffin, which is a super cool story in itself.
Anyhow, if Glen says the two are identical, I'll just have to trust his judgement.
Thanks a bunch for all of the info gentlemen
BigBearJoe
Member
Thank you and thanks for the add. I've been casting lead for about 14 years now and cast for just about every rifle and pistol I own from 54 cal round balls for my flintlock plains rifle and pistol, to 454 cal round balls for my cap guns, and from 380 ACP, 9mm to 45 ACP, 45 Colt, and 44 mag bullets. As for lever guns and bolt rifles I cast from 30-30, to 7.65 X 54R, to 45-70.
My preference is usually for plain based, non-checked bullets and although I've never counted them all, I suspect I have at least 35 molds or more and use most of them.
So the illusive mold I'm really seeking at present is a Lyman 412263! I acquired a Ruger No. 1H Tropical in 405 Winchester a few years back at a price I could afford. It has some really great wood! The last owner had cut the front sight down, maybe because he was using 51 cal pistol bullets or something like that. Anyhow, I have managed to find 405 Win Hornady dies, RCBS shell holder, two boxes of Barnes TSX non-lead bullets (haven't tried them yet) and some NOS Hornady brass in the really old rivited boxes. The brass came with about 80 or so what I believe to be Lyman 412263 cast bullets, plain based, lubed with some soft greenish stuff that works pretty good, and sized to .412". After replacing the front sight, a 412263 over a starting load of 38.5 grains of ancient surplus marked "No.4198 Rifle Powder" (yellow can) made for a very accurate load. And recoil isn't all that bad either. I haven't chrono'd them yet, but I like the load so well that I really want to find a Lyman mold for this bullet. No such luck, been looking for almost two months now. Lyman discontinued them not all that long ago either. Oh well, if I ever do find one I've got plenty of stuff for bartering!
Thanks again for the add. By the way, I do live in Big Bear Lake, CA and my day job is a professional geologist.
If anyone would like to see the story and photos about the old revived Ruger No.1H Tropical, check it out here...
http://exhaustnotes.us/blog/index.php/2022/02/04/bringing-a-405-ruger-no-1-back-to-life/
My preference is usually for plain based, non-checked bullets and although I've never counted them all, I suspect I have at least 35 molds or more and use most of them.
So the illusive mold I'm really seeking at present is a Lyman 412263! I acquired a Ruger No. 1H Tropical in 405 Winchester a few years back at a price I could afford. It has some really great wood! The last owner had cut the front sight down, maybe because he was using 51 cal pistol bullets or something like that. Anyhow, I have managed to find 405 Win Hornady dies, RCBS shell holder, two boxes of Barnes TSX non-lead bullets (haven't tried them yet) and some NOS Hornady brass in the really old rivited boxes. The brass came with about 80 or so what I believe to be Lyman 412263 cast bullets, plain based, lubed with some soft greenish stuff that works pretty good, and sized to .412". After replacing the front sight, a 412263 over a starting load of 38.5 grains of ancient surplus marked "No.4198 Rifle Powder" (yellow can) made for a very accurate load. And recoil isn't all that bad either. I haven't chrono'd them yet, but I like the load so well that I really want to find a Lyman mold for this bullet. No such luck, been looking for almost two months now. Lyman discontinued them not all that long ago either. Oh well, if I ever do find one I've got plenty of stuff for bartering!
Thanks again for the add. By the way, I do live in Big Bear Lake, CA and my day job is a professional geologist.
If anyone would like to see the story and photos about the old revived Ruger No.1H Tropical, check it out here...
http://exhaustnotes.us/blog/index.php/2022/02/04/bringing-a-405-ruger-no-1-back-to-life/
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
My entire experience with Lyman #357466 came from about 200 samples sent my way c. 2011 by a member at the old site. I ran an equal number of them in 38 Special and 357 Magnum cases/revolvers, and like others here I cannot understand the bad rap given to #357446. My samples shot right with #358477, #358429, and #358156 as far as accuracy was concerned.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
Big Bear, I'm in Redlands--welcome to the rabbit hole.
I am a recent new member to The 348 WCF Fan Club of America, so I know your pain when it comes to scarce tools and components. Good to go now, but it took a while with the shortages and buccaneers wreaking havoc upon our hobby.
Take a look at a couple firms that members here use for Rare & Endangered Mould Designs--NOE and Accurate Molds. I had Accurate make me a plain-based 250 grain design for the 348 a few months ago. Beautiful tools, superior in all respects to current Lyman mould products.
I am a recent new member to The 348 WCF Fan Club of America, so I know your pain when it comes to scarce tools and components. Good to go now, but it took a while with the shortages and buccaneers wreaking havoc upon our hobby.
Take a look at a couple firms that members here use for Rare & Endangered Mould Designs--NOE and Accurate Molds. I had Accurate make me a plain-based 250 grain design for the 348 a few months ago. Beautiful tools, superior in all respects to current Lyman mould products.
BigBearJoe
Member
L Ross,
Thanks for the head's up. I did call Buffalo Arms back in January and Don said they didn't have the Lyman 412263 mold. Also I emailed Lyman and they say it has been discontinued and they have no plans for making any more. However Buffalo Arms does offer cast, sized, and lubed bullets in this style that look to be from the same mold to me. However they were out of stock and I gave Don my credit card info for two boxes of 50 when they cast some more.
It appears that the 405 Winchester wasn't much of a modern commercial success. It uses a very uncommon .412" diameter bullet, (413" for lead) and not the more common 410 diameter of the other calibers you mention. Ruger made a small run No.1-H tropical rifles chambered in 405 Win, one of which I have, and Winchester had Miroku in Japan make a run of 1895's in 405 win (aka Teddy Roosevelt lever guns). Not sure what people are feeding these since the Hornady 405 ammo seems to have dried up. But I do know if I can just get a suitable bullet mold I'll be "set for life" with ammo for my No.1H. Or as much prepared as anyone can be in these volatile times!
Thanks for the reminder, though. When I get a break I'll call Buffalo Arms to see where my bullet order is on their list of customer orders.
Big Bear Joe
Thanks for the head's up. I did call Buffalo Arms back in January and Don said they didn't have the Lyman 412263 mold. Also I emailed Lyman and they say it has been discontinued and they have no plans for making any more. However Buffalo Arms does offer cast, sized, and lubed bullets in this style that look to be from the same mold to me. However they were out of stock and I gave Don my credit card info for two boxes of 50 when they cast some more.
It appears that the 405 Winchester wasn't much of a modern commercial success. It uses a very uncommon .412" diameter bullet, (413" for lead) and not the more common 410 diameter of the other calibers you mention. Ruger made a small run No.1-H tropical rifles chambered in 405 Win, one of which I have, and Winchester had Miroku in Japan make a run of 1895's in 405 win (aka Teddy Roosevelt lever guns). Not sure what people are feeding these since the Hornady 405 ammo seems to have dried up. But I do know if I can just get a suitable bullet mold I'll be "set for life" with ammo for my No.1H. Or as much prepared as anyone can be in these volatile times!
Thanks for the reminder, though. When I get a break I'll call Buffalo Arms to see where my bullet order is on their list of customer orders.
Big Bear Joe
Michael
Active Member. Uh/What
Give Steve Brooks a call, and chat with him about your needs, he makes a superb mold. Also, Accurate molds, I do not own one myself, but many of the guys here swear by them. Neither of these 2 options are inexpensive, but you have a really sweet rifle (I am very jealous) treat it and yourself right and get a good mold to match.
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I have a Ruger #1 in .405 Winchester and like it very much. I have never shot a jacketed bullet through it yet (although I have a couple boxes in the garage, in case I ever need them). I had Mountain Molds make me a 300 GC-FP mould back when I bought the rifle, and that is all I have ever shot through it. 4895 works quite well in the .405 case. Dan has retired now, so that source of moulds has dried up, but Accurate offers some very suitable designs (both PB and GC) in the 275-325 grain range. Also, if you need more 412263s, my friend Jon Vivas at Western Bullet Company offers them for sale.
BigBearJoe
Member
Thanks Glen, I tried to call Buffalo Arms a few times yesterday to check on my order status but got no answer. I'll try again next week. If they are having trouble with orders and they don't know when they can deliver, I will give Jon @ Western Bullet a call.....Oh no! I just checked their website and 412263 is listed as "Out of Stock" too! And now I am reminded of why we all love casting with our own molds! If there is still time after putting a new radiator in the wife's Avalon today, I think I'll dedicate the afternoon to casting 357 mag Ray Thompson hollow points with Lyman 358156-547 HP and maybe some 45 colt Keith-style #452424 bullets using a newer Lyman mold that went back to the square grease groove.
I like the 358156 because it shoots well, but I hate the unnecessary complexity and expense of the whole unnecessary gas check deal! That's why I want to get a 358477 or 357477 single cavity without gas check and have it turned into a HP mold.
Anyhow, I was recently gifted a really nice S&W 25-7 "Model of 1989" by a good friend. He said that the 25-7 didn't really didn't fit his hand too well and he thought that I might like to have it. Well yeah! He prefers his early 20's or 30's Colt SAA, also in 45 colt. But anyway, the 25-7 fit my hands well enough with the rubber Hogue grip it came with but it just didn't seem right on such a fine revolver. I found a used set of Herrett's Jordan Trooper N-frame grips on ebay. I didn't care for the finger grooves so I ground them dawn a bit and refinished the stocks with a few coats of tongue oil and presto! The modified Jordan Trooper grips really feel perfect. This has become one of my favorite double action revolvers. With its 5" barrel and non-fluted cylinder, I suspect that old Elmer himself might have even approved of this gun.
Some of you might like to see photos of the S&W 25-7 and my home cast bullets? I load them to about 850 fps for easy-shooting fun with no leading at all. The 45 colt works well with a lot of powders, but my favorite is Win 231. For special occasions I've loaded it up to about 1,000+ fps using 231, tight group, unique and accurate. But that is for very occasional use in my N-frame revolver, and not recommended for yours. Any more potent loads are usually reserved for my 44 magnum revolvers. But I have to say, this 45 is way more fun to shoot than any of my 44 mags.
I like the 358156 because it shoots well, but I hate the unnecessary complexity and expense of the whole unnecessary gas check deal! That's why I want to get a 358477 or 357477 single cavity without gas check and have it turned into a HP mold.
Anyhow, I was recently gifted a really nice S&W 25-7 "Model of 1989" by a good friend. He said that the 25-7 didn't really didn't fit his hand too well and he thought that I might like to have it. Well yeah! He prefers his early 20's or 30's Colt SAA, also in 45 colt. But anyway, the 25-7 fit my hands well enough with the rubber Hogue grip it came with but it just didn't seem right on such a fine revolver. I found a used set of Herrett's Jordan Trooper N-frame grips on ebay. I didn't care for the finger grooves so I ground them dawn a bit and refinished the stocks with a few coats of tongue oil and presto! The modified Jordan Trooper grips really feel perfect. This has become one of my favorite double action revolvers. With its 5" barrel and non-fluted cylinder, I suspect that old Elmer himself might have even approved of this gun.
Some of you might like to see photos of the S&W 25-7 and my home cast bullets? I load them to about 850 fps for easy-shooting fun with no leading at all. The 45 colt works well with a lot of powders, but my favorite is Win 231. For special occasions I've loaded it up to about 1,000+ fps using 231, tight group, unique and accurate. But that is for very occasional use in my N-frame revolver, and not recommended for yours. Any more potent loads are usually reserved for my 44 magnum revolvers. But I have to say, this 45 is way more fun to shoot than any of my 44 mags.
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trapper9260
Active Member
I have that mold in PB , it is a Lyman one , use it in both 38spl/357 . Some of my molds for them , I also use for my 9mm Luger cart.
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
Another unlikely heavy 9mm is 358156 without a gas check seated. This all came about one day when I had a stray Hornady 147 gr XTP JHP sitting on the bench, and I set a recently cast 358156HP a few inches away as I was loading a batch of them at the time. I think I set it down to do a mid-batch powder weight check or something. This similarities between the two were astonishing. In my opinion, 358156 is essentially a modified 357446 (which I also have), but I like the '156 gas check step to accommodate the inner taper of the 9mm case.
BigBearJoe
Member
Glen, I finally found a Lyman 412263 mold online and purchased it at the "buy it now" asking price. It arrived in today's mail along with a custom bullet sizer/luber die in .413" from Buffalo Arms. I'm extremely happy to have found both, especially the Lyman mold because the test bullets I got with the dies and brass years ago shoot so well from the Ruger. This mold is apparently pretty scarce and I doubt Lyman made many of them. I really like the big square lube grooves. Now I'm 100% certain that the test bullets are indeed cast from a 412263 mold because they fit perfectly (see photos).
I'm mulling over what alloy to use for the 405 win bullets. I don't know how hard my test bullets are but I have a Lee hardness tester I haven't used enough to have gained a lot of confidence in it. That will be my project tomorrow - to measure the hardness of a test bullet to try and determine if it is wheel weight, Lyman #2, linotype, etc. Hopefully I can be proficient enough with the Lee tester to make a determination.
What I have on hand are COWW, SOWW, pure tin from Roto Metals, about 40 pounds of clean linotype letters and spacers, lead shot, pewter, and scuba weights. I don't have any Lyman #2 alloy. In the past I have had really good success casting accurate rifle bullets for 45-70 and 7.62 X 54R from just plain COWW with no tin or shot added. On the other hand, I've had some really poor luck casting Lyman 311041 GC FP, 30-30 win bullets for my 1980's vintage Marlin 336. I am thinking that Marlin's microgroove rifiling just doesn't mix with that style of bullet but maybe some day I'll figure it out. I think at one time Ranch Dog sold a mold specifically for Marlin 30-30 microgroove leverguns, but I've never been able to find one.
Anyhow, my question for you is what alloy are your using for your Mountain Molds 300 GC FP bullets? Would you recommend the same for a plain base non-checked bullet for the 405 win?
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fiver
Well-Known Member
NOE does a ranch dog iteration for the marlins.
the 041 is too finicky, it either works like a champ or is a horrible dud.
unfortunately for me 90% of the time it's a dud, the other 10% of the time i'm glad i have the mold.
it works like a champ in the winchester 30-30's if you don't push it too hard though.
i run it on top of 4831 at about 1800Fps. or so.
the problem with the marlins is the 041 just ain't gonna fit, the nose don't fit, the body is usually too small to top it off.
marlin's want bigger and a little harder to engage the rifling properly, plus the nose needs to have that longer larger radius to them to bridge the gap they have in front of the chamber.
the 041 is too finicky, it either works like a champ or is a horrible dud.
unfortunately for me 90% of the time it's a dud, the other 10% of the time i'm glad i have the mold.
it works like a champ in the winchester 30-30's if you don't push it too hard though.
i run it on top of 4831 at about 1800Fps. or so.
the problem with the marlins is the 041 just ain't gonna fit, the nose don't fit, the body is usually too small to top it off.
marlin's want bigger and a little harder to engage the rifling properly, plus the nose needs to have that longer larger radius to them to bridge the gap they have in front of the chamber.
I'm using an alloy that's a mix of 3 parts recovered range scrap (BHN about 8) and 1 part linotype. Final mix is about BHN of 13-14. Shoots very nicely in the .405 #1 at 2200 fps with a GC. For a PB, I would probably aim for a somewhat lower velocity. I use the same alloy for my Marlin Model 36 .30-30s with the 311041, using Jim Taylor's load of 26.0 grains of H335 for about 1900 fps, and it shoots superbly.