38 super aint no joke!!

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Mainiac

Well-Known Member
Ive had my super for a while,,tested high speed loads today,because ive never tried it with this.

I was shooting a 127hp,,1 load was just shy of 1400,,1380,no bad pressure signs,and shot pretty well,to boot!
Anyhoo,,125@1400 is 357 mag territory,,theres more there,but i dont care for the blast,so probably wont go after it.
100 years old,,had to have been the original magnum!
 
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Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
I've always seen the 38 Super as the early American version of the 9mm Luger +P+.

9mm +P+ with a 124gr bullet gets close at about 1300 fps.
9mm+P+ with a 115 gr bullet can get over 1350fps .
357 SIG is there with a 125gr bullet.

European 9mm Luger loads with 115-125 grain bullets are not quite +P+ levels but often reach levels that would be classified as +P in the U.S.
These European loads sort of fall between standard pressure U.S. 9mm and the +P+ loads. The Swiss issued a 9mm load that was used in thier model 49 (SIG P210) pistol that was very hot by U.S. standards but also known for excellent performance.

I've always felt the 357 Magnum sort of stole the thunder from the 38 Super in the U.S.A. Had the 38 Super been allowed to establish a bit more following before the 357 Magnum was introduced (6 years after the 38 Super) it may have gained a better foothold. The depression didn't help matters in terms of sales. Nor did the semi-rimmed casing of the 38 Super help its acceptance.
 
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Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
Standard pressure, U.S.A. spec. 9mm Parabellum (AKA 9x19, 9mm Luger) is not quite in the same game as 38 Super. But 9mm +P+ can get close.

It's easy to get lulled into thinking that litte 9mm Luger casing can't match the bigger 38 Super but some of the +P+ loads will surprise you.

Out of a Beretta 92 barrel (125mm or roughly 4.9 inches) I've seen Winchester 9mm +P+ 115 grain bullets consistently clock in the mid 1300 fps range. Now that's a 40,000 C.U.P. pressure load and far above acceptable 9mm pressure levels, so not for everyday use in every gun.
BUT, surprising performance from that "little" :) 9mm cartridge.

It's probably safer to seek that performance from a 38 Super or 357 SIG.
 
RicinYakima

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
"Historically speaking, in 1934—a year after the Kansas City Massacre that left four law enforcement officers dead, including a Bureau agent—Congress gave FBI agents the authority to carry firearms."

"38 Super cartridge was released in 1929, and was little more than a hot . 38 ACP loaded to its original velocities and designed specifically for the new Colt pistol."

Penetration of sheet metal and cast iron is almost whole dependent upon upon striking velocity. With metal cased 38 super bullets and metal capped 38/44 High Speed bullets, end to end shots on Fords and side to side shots on Hudsons.

Like the 1911 I had with a BoStar (sp) barrel that headspaced on the case mouth. Accuracy was always an issue with the barrels that headspaced on the tiny little rim. Used it for a back up for coyotes in the 1970's for its flat shooting.
 
JonB

JonB

Halcyon member
I've said this a couple times before, but I'll say it again. When I worked up a load (125gr) for my RIA 1911 38 Super, I hoped to get near a Max velocity, but on the way up, and not near Max, the gun was launching the brass into the next zip code, so I decided to back it down a little and settle for a average load and not blasting my brass into the next County. The Heavy RIA tames what little recoil there is, so it's almost like shooting a rimfire pistol. If I didn't buy a big box of starline brass, I'd probably swap the 38 super or a 45acp.
 
CWLONGSHOT

CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
Petrol & Powder said:
Standard pressure, U.S.A. spec. 9mm Parabellum (AKA 9x19, 9mm Luger) is not quite in the same game as 38 Super. But 9mm +P+ can get close.

It's easy to get lulled into thinking that litte 9mm Luger casing can't match the bigger 38 Super but some of the +P+ loads will surprise you.

Out of a Beretta 92 barrel (125mm or roughly 4.9 inches) I've seen Winchester 9mm +P+ 115 grain bullets consistently clock in the mid 1300 fps range. Now that's a 40,000 C.U.P. pressure load and far above acceptable 9mm pressure levels, so not for everyday use in every gun.
BUT, surprising performance from that "little" :) 9mm cartridge.

It's probably safer to seek that performance from a 38 Super or 357 SIG.
Click to expand...
One issue with +P+ is most guns are not rated for it! Many dont even carry a +P rating!!

CW
 
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Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
CWLONGSHOT said:
One issue with +P+ is most guns are not rated for it! Many dont even carry a +P rating!!

CW
Click to expand...
Agreed. +P+ is really pushing the limit.
I mention it because the gap between 9mm and 38 Super isn't as large as it is sometimes preceived. The 38 Super is essentially a 9mm magnum.
History is inflexible but had the 38 Super been introduced as a rimless cartridge and with slightly different dimension from the 38 Auto, it may have faired better.
 
CZ93X62

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Agreed--the 38 Super is no joke. Like any other autopistol caliber, it benefits from some other bullert design than the RN/FMJ. I have yet to own one.

The 38 Super is IMMENSELY POPULAR pistol caliber south of the border. No self-respecting cartel sicario would be caught dead without one--and two is preferable.

Hard pass on any 38 Supers in my gun safe.
 
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richhodg66

Well-Known Member
I am told that when citizens in Mexico were allowed to own handguns, Mexico had a law that one could not own a pistol in a military chambering, hence the popularity of the .38 Super. When I lived in El Paso 30+ years ago, I'd peruse pawn shops and it was surprising how many Colt and Llama pistols in .38 Super showed up.
 
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Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
The ban on military cartridges is not limited to the western hemisphere. It has long been the law in many parts of the world.

As for the performance of the 38 Super........In terms of accuracy, it's semi-rimmed design can be a problem at times and not a problem at times.
In terms of power, I think its performance is a bit inflated in the U.S.A.
The 38 Super looks very good when compared to a standard pressure 9mm load in the U.S.A.
When you look at 9mm +P loads (essentially European level 9mm loadings) the gap between 9mm and 38 Super isn't as large. When you look at 38 Super and 9mm +P+ (admittedly an overpressure load) that gap is even smaller.

I'm not saying the 9mm Luger and 38 Super are equal but I am saying the gap between them isn't huge.
There's a bit of Pro-American bias at play.
That "no military" cartridge ban helped to keep the 38 Super relavent.
 
Bret4207

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
There is a 38 Super in my safe, and an ammo can of mixed 38 Super/9MM Largo (IIRC) in the garage. If things ever get worked out, I hope to try the gun out. I believe the former owner shot both rounds through it, but I'll stick with the Supers. If things don't work out, I'll still have all the parts but the Colt frame and I could conceivably transfer the parts to my own 1911.
 
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richhodg66

Well-Known Member
The last few years Dad was still shooting seriously, he got some big CZ pistol in 9x23 that he really liked. Brother has it now, but I did load some ammo for him to take it shooting a few time. That thing was a beast, pretty ferocious round, but I'm not a big auto pistol guuy anf i have fairly small hands and short fingers, so I never warmed ro it. I liked the concept of a truly powerful .38 caliber for bottom feeders. I think they missed a great opportunity for marketing that 9x23, if it had been me, I'd have called it the ".38 Super Duper."
 
RBHarter

RBHarter

West Central AR
A couple of notes .
As I understand it . I might be wrong or over dissected what I read .
There is a 38 auto , a 38 super , and a 38 super auto . They are sort of like the 38 Special, +P , and 357 Chrono levels in 38 cases . When one compares 9mm +P and calls it more powerful than 38 Special I point out that the old pathetic 38 has a standard bullet weight of 158 gr not 125 and the 147 will only go about 950 fps in a 4" pistol which nobody carries and 11 gr at the same 950 out of a 2" revolver many will ...... Yep they're close ........

A 125 at 1400 fps is super auto and hot on the 357 . 200 fps is a long ways in a pistol at 50' but not so big a deal when comparing 7-08,275 Rigby , 280 and 7RM at 300 yd .

It's a perspective thing.
 
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Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
We all know the history behind the 38 ACP and its younger, stronger brother the 38 Super. I’ve always thought that it was an unfortunate choice to continue using the semi-rimmed case of the 38 Auto when the 38 Super was developed. The 9 x 23 Winchester cartridge has the outward appearance of being a 38 Super with a rimless case (I know there are more differences but that’s its basic form) The roughly 23 mm case length and 33 mm OAL is a pattern often repeated in 9mm cartridge designs.

The concept of a high velocity 9mm pistol cartridge is certainly not new, there have been many versions of that concept over the last 120 years.

When you get into the realm of a 9mm bullet diameter with a projectile weight of 125grains and muzzle velocities of 1400+ fps – you are in 357 Magnum territory. When you can do that with a rimless pistol cartridge for a semi-auto pistol, you are marrying the ballistic performance of a 357-magnum revolver with the capacity and rapid reloading traits of a pistol.

Now the 9 x 23 Winchester can operate at higher pressures than the 38 Super cartridges, but the basic form is similar. I’ve always believed that had the 38 Super been introduced as a rimless case (and maybe a slightly stronger case head) it would have developed a stronger following in the U.S.A. The abundance of very inexpensive 45 ACP ammunition and components was likely another factor that didn’t help the sales of 38 Super pistols.

In countries where civilian possession of the 9 x 19 cartridge was banned, the 38 Super was an attractive alternative. In countries where the 45 ACP was inexpensive and plentiful (like the U.S.A.) the 45 ACP was an inexpensive alternative in the same sized pistol.
 
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