38 super aint no joke!!

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
A couple of notes .
As I understand it . I might be wrong or over dissected what I read .
There is a 38 auto , a 38 super , and a 38 super auto . .........
Not sure there are three different cartridges there.
38 ACP (AKA 38 Auto) and 38 Super.

38 Super Auto is a bit redundant, its just 38 Super.

From an NRA article dated 8/9/2020:
"The .38 Super was introduced in 1929. It’s nothing more than the .38 Automatic (ACP) cartridge, designed by John Browning in 1900, loaded to higher pressures. The .38 ACP is loaded to a Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) of 26,500 psi and the .38 Super is loaded to a MAP of 36,500 psi. The .38 Super did not get the +P designation until 1974.

All .38 Super ammunition is considered +P ammunition........"

It can be found here:

Common names for the 38 Super inculde:
38 Super, 38 Super +P, 38 Super Auto, 38 Super Automatic +P, and 9 x 23 mmSR - all the same cartridge with different names.
 
Last edited:

JonB

Halcyon member
Maybe most of you know this, but when I ordered 38 Super brass from Starline, they also offered a rimless version labeled 38 Super Comp. It was kind of a lesson to me...wasn't sure which to order, until I learned that there is likely a different extractor needed for the Comp. I wanted to keep my gun simple and stock, so I ordered the semi-rimless.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
There's an even longer 9mm Winchester mag that Grizzly arms did for a while. It was/is a rimless 357 mag on a 223 case . Magnum Research probably did a few also . In a long slide the lack of cylinder gap gave it a fair boost even at the "modest" 35 kpsi of the 357 .

I wanted a 38 super for a while and I had my choice of blue or nickle at a price I would have paid for a reasonably tight smooth NIB 1911 . Unfortunately it also falls into my no man's land of too much for the night stand and not enough for a legal primary hunting tool . Not a problem now but I didn't plan on moving then .
 

Mainiac

Well-Known Member
Maybe most of you know this, but when I ordered 38 Super brass from Starline, they also offered a rimless version labeled 38 Super Comp. It was kind of a lesson to me...wasn't sure which to order, until I learned that there is likely a different extractor needed for the Comp. I wanted to keep my gun simple and stock, so I ordered the semi-rimless.
Same here!!to run the super comp brass,ive read where you might have to bend extractor.
I didnt want togodown that road,,so went with ol fashion semi rims,,,3000+ rounds later...have had ZERO issues.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
A couple of notes .
As I understand it . I might be wrong or over dissected what I read .
There is a 38 auto , a 38 super , and a 38 super auto . They are sort of like the 38 Special, +P , and 357 Chrono levels in 38 cases . When one compares 9mm +P and calls it more powerful than 38 Special I point out that the old pathetic 38 has a standard bullet weight of 158 gr not 125 and the 147 will only go about 950 fps in a 4" pistol which nobody carries and 11 gr at the same 950 out of a 2" revolver many will ...... Yep they're close ........

A 125 at 1400 fps is super auto and hot on the 357 . 200 fps is a long ways in a pistol at 50' but not so big a deal when comparing 7-08,275 Rigby , 280 and 7RM at 300 yd .

It's a perspective thing.
Some years back on The Site That Shall Not Be Named, I opined that the 9mm was nothing more than an autoloading 38 Special. You would have thought I'd shown a video of me beating a puppy to death!!! There are a LOT of people out there that have no clue of what the 38 Spec can and did do back before the 9mm fan bois got going. I still maintain that there is nothing the 9 can do the 38 can't given appropriate guns to use the ammo. Well, the 9 can fail to feed and the brass does get lost easier, so I'll add that caveat!
 

richhodg66

Well-Known Member
Some years back on The Site That Shall Not Be Named, I opined that the 9mm was nothing more than an autoloading 38 Special. You would have thought I'd shown a video of me beating a puppy to death!!! There are a LOT of people out there that have no clue of what the 38 Spec can and did do back before the 9mm fan bois got going. I still maintain that there is nothing the 9 can do the 38 can't given appropriate guns to use the ammo. Well, the 9 can fail to feed and the brass does get lost easier, so I'll add that caveat!
Too many over there who simply cannot think.
 

richhodg66

Well-Known Member
Kinda funny your analogy of the 9mm being a .38 Special auto loader. Been shooting a bunch of 130 grain SWCs through my Hi Point 995 carbine, I just ignore the crimping groove and it works fine
 

CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
I enjoy my Supers. The Saeco 383 @ 140g is a favorite, but small meplat.
The Lyman 356634 works well for lil lighter weight.
The 356637 @ 150g is another I have but would like more meplat.

I have hi hopes for this new LEE. 356-147TC. A friend has the mold and is sending me some to try. It appears ta have a good meplat. Reliable feeding is my question. Its more like that 356634.

IMG_7251.jpegIMG_3680.jpeg

I have a Arsenal Ranch Dog copy in 135g that has a larger meplat yet but not the weight.

CW
 
Last edited:

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Kinda funny your analogy of the 9mm being a .38 Special auto loader. Been shooting a bunch of 130 grain SWCs through my Hi Point 995 carbine, I just ignore the crimping groove and it works fine
Well, when you look back at the performance over the decades, there isn't a lot of difference. It was only when the 9 started getting known as an abysmal manstopper in police work and the +P/+P+ rage started that it got any traction. And based on my personal experience with the 147 "FBI Load" and the +P+ 124 Gold Dot stuff, I'm still no big fan of the 9. But the 38 had already done that back in the 30's, 40's and 50's. Just because your K frame Smith isn't roll marked 38/44 doesn't mean it won't handle 38/44 type loads. And a FN or SWC at 12, 13, 1400fps in still going to do more than a RN FMJ. I guess my point is that if as much attention had been paid to the 38 as was paid to the 9 in the area of +P+ and fancy HP's then the 38 would have as much of a rep as the 9 today. But the older 38's like the Police Positive, the light alloy framed Colts and Smiths, to say nothing of the H+R's and imports will always hold the 38 back. You can load the 38 case to 357 levels with complete success IF you have a gun that is appropriate to use them in. I still kick myself for using "Skeeter Loads" in a Colt Cobra. Not that I shot thousands through it, but I put enough through it that I wonder what damage and wear I did to it. I also wish I'd kept that gun!
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
I routinely encounter people that look at the 38 Special and 9mm Luger cartridges side by side and ignorantly proclaim the 38 Special is “more powerful” because “it has more powder”. Now, anyone with even a passing knowledge of smokeless powder cartridges, reloading and internal ballistics knows this is flawed thinking. I think we've all met those people that make those types of flawed proclaimations.

The 38 Special and the 9mm Luger cartridges were introduced within a few years of each other (1898 and 1901 respectively) but they had different origins and took different paths. The 9mm was a smokeless powder, high pressure cartridge from the beginning. The 38 Special was a lower pressure, lower velocity cartridge and typically loaded with a heavier bullet than the 9mm. However, both cartridges utilized a projectile of nearly the same diameter.

Revolvers don’t have the challenges of feeding and cycling that pistols must cope with but despite this advantage, revolvers were often loaded with round nose bullets that have poor terminal performance. People such as Elmer Keith, handgun hunters and savvy street cops knew that a flat nosed bullet had better stopping power than the round nose bullet but that information seemed to be slow to trickle down to everyone.

The poor reputation of the 9mm wasn’t the result of the cartridge being bad but rather that the cartridge was often loaded with poor performing bullets and lower velocities than the cartridge was designed for. Add to that the dramatic increase in use of the 9mm starting in the 1980’s (at least in North America) and more than just a little bias against those new-fangled semi-auto pistols and the stage was set. The 9mm cartridge received the blame for poor performance.

The introduction of the 357 Magnum, later followed by the advent of the K-frame Magnum revolvers, probably stunted the development of better 38 Special ammunition. If you needed more stopping power, you just selected the 357 magnum.

The real push to develop better 38 Special ammunition came out of law enforcement agencies that prohibited the use of the 357 Magnum. The increase in crime in the 1970’s helped to fuel this (sound familiar?) By the late 1970’s agencies either switched to the 357 Magnum or, if that was politically impractical, they adopted more effective 38 Special ammunition.
 
Last edited:

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
Given the recoil and muzzle blast (in)tolerance of many shooters a .38 may well be a superior choice to a .357 for a lot of purposes.

A 125gr .36 caliber bullet at the same velocity from any cartridge should have the same terminal performance. To me it boils down to the platform it is launched from. Five or six shots from a wheely, ten plus from a bottom feeder. Both have up and down sides.

Not worth arguing about, what suits your needs and purposes should be the determinant.
 

Missionary

Well-Known Member
As cheap as the Police Positive model was 25 years back I had no issue to wack off the barrels of a couple well holster worn ones making them very usable with a 2" barrel.
 

Barry in IN

New Member
I love the Super!
Like CWLongshot, I like the Saeco 383. My other favorite in the Super is the Lyman 358480 133 grain SWC. If that mould wasn't designed for the .38 Super it should've/could've been.

Factory 125 grain JHP Cor-Bon chronos within 50-75 fps of .357 Mag/125 from a 4" revolver. A nice flat 1911 with 10+1 of that is no dog.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
It can crop upin 32 ACP if cartridge OAL is not close to magazine full depth. My Steyr 1908 does that with Silvertip factory loads. An old Beretta 81 also did this with STs as the mag got to 2-3 cartridges left. It makes me appreciate the M1935 MAS 7.65 French pistol round--rimless and runs 72 grain bullets 1000 FPS. It looks like a SIG P-210 that got shrunk in the wash.