38 super aint no joke!!

Rushcreek

Well-Known Member
A cut down Police Positive Special “gun show special” was one of my most remembered snub noses. I could hit a stationary rabbit in the head with it and often did.
Does anyone remember the Jeff Cooper G&A article(s) of souping up the Super by using a Bar Sto 6” barrel headspaced on the mouth instead of the semi-rim?
They used .38 Super brass until it started failing, then switched to cut down/reamed .223 Remington brass. Impressive ballistics and they nicknamed it the “Super Cooper” of course!
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
The 32 ACP (introduced circa 1899), 38 ACP (circa 1900) and 25ACP (1905) are all John Browning designs. It seems Mr. Browning wasn’t quite comfortable with the concept of a completely rimless design in those early days. But he soon embraced the rimless concept with the 45 ACP (1904) and 380 Auto (1908).

Those were the very early days of self-loading pistols and all of that was new technology.

Georg Luger’s 9mm parabellum (circa 1901) was a rimless design and John Browning would have undoubtedly been aware of that cartridge and its design. (along with other cartridges of the day).

When you’re on the cutting edge of new technology, you are the one that picks the path you go down. Browning went down the path of semi-rimmed pistol cartridges but soon switched to the rimless design. Had he been a little later to the party, perhaps he would have made all his cartridges rimless?

I commented previously on this thread that I always considered it an unfortunate turn of events that the 38 Super retained the same casing as the 38 ACP. Had the 38 Super utilized a rimless case with a slightly longer casing to prevent it from being interchangeable with the 38 ACP; I think it would have gained stronger support earlier. The introduction right before the Great Depression and the abundance of cheap surplus 45 ACP ammo probably didn’t help matters.

Thus is history made.
 

CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
I have read that all the ACP's are rimmed.

The 45 Auto is inaccurately called a ACP it is a 45 Auto as the 380 is.

Not sure of actual truth. I have looked/searched for old data to see. Its one of those 45 Long Colt vs 45Colt things...

Last I read on that was BOTH/EITHER was Correct.

CW
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
Not all of the "ACP" [Automatic Colt Pistol] cartridges are semi-rimmed.

45 ACP is the correct designation for that cartridge but 45 Auto has become accepted.

The same holds true for the 380 Auto but the "Auto" designation seems to be far more common these days.

Colt very wisely capitalized on their production of John Browning designs, including the cartridges. Colt placed their name in the cartridge designation (the “C” in ACP) to enforce their association with the cartridge. This was common practice and remains a common practice in cartridge naming to this day. Firearms manufacturers always like to get their names on cartridges.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
The 380 had 8 names out of the gate kind of like the 38 Short. 9mm corto/Kurtz and 9×17 come to mind right away.

It's like that 45 Short Colts that lasted 1000 rounds as a Colts rimmed S&W case .
 

Ricochet

Member
Same here!!to run the super comp brass,ive read where you might have to bend extractor.
I didnt want togodown that road,,so went with ol fashion semi rims,,,3000+ rounds later...have had ZERO issues.
I've had a Rock Island Armory 1911 .38 Super since 2016. Mine is nickel plated, and it's plated inside and out. That reduced some critical dimensions and made it very tight fitting. It's finicky about chambering cartridges; I have to pay close attention to bullet sizing, seating so the base of the bullet ogive doesn't jam against the bore throat, and run them through a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die to make sure the outside cartridge dimensions will fit. The groove diameter is .352". It handles jacketed loads slick as a whistle. It's more accurate than I am. I've used Starline Super Comp brass from the beginning and never had a round fail to eject properly. RIA lists the extractor as the same part for .38 Super and 9mm. I have a lot of WC820 and Accurate #9, and run 124 & 125 grain bullets at about 1300 FPS for jacketed, 1350 for cast. Hodgdon's data indicate you can get a little more speed out of Accurate #7, but I've never tried it.

The semi-rimless case is what John Browning thought best for auto pistol cartridges. The early .38 Automatic colt pistols headspaced on the rim and supported the rim around most of its circumference. The semi-rimless cases worked fine there. Those pistols became obsolete in the 19209s and sales were low, but there continued to be some demand for a .38 Auto pistol. When the idea to make the Government Model in .38 Auto as a replacement for the old model .38s came along, they continued headspacing on the rim as they always had, but the feed ramp and extractor took out too much of the surface the rim seated against, making the rim support unstable. That didn't get recognized and corrected until BAR-STO made barrels headspacing on the case mouths, I think in the late '70s or early '80s.

As for the confusion about nomenclature, when the converted Government Model came out, it was "Colt's Super .38." That was the gun name. The cartridge it was chambered for was the old .38 Automatic. Originally it was loaded with 130 grain bullets at a rated 1190 FPS and Colt advertised it as "Almost 1200 FPS!" After the Super .38 pistol was brought out, it was realized that it was a much stronger pistol and could handle higher pressures and velocities. Remington brought out ".38 Super Automatic" cartridges loaded with 130 grain bullets at 1275 FPS, which was long the standard. FMJ, SP, and JHP factory loads were all available. Maj. Julian Hatcher opined in The American Rifleman when the Super .38 was announced that it would be useful for lawmen who needed to have capability to penetrate "bulletproof vests" and car bodies. It had long been recognized that the old 1900 Military .38 Auto and its derivatives weren't strong enough. The wedge that stopped the slide could break and let the slide fly off to the rear and hit the shooter, much as some Beretta 92s did later. So the standard .38 Auto was downloaded to a muzzle velocity of 1060 FPS and max pressure of 26,000 PSI. .38 Super cartridge boxes always carried warnings to only use them in Colt's Super .38 and Government Model pistols, but lots of folks never read or follow directions. In 1974 SAAMI added the +P designation to the .38 Super as an additional safety warning. That doesn't mean they're loaded to higher pressures than .38 Super ammo without the +P designation. I notice that advertised factory ballistics for .38 Super cartridges now are mostly down to the velocity of original .38 Auto cartridges, doubtless for liability concerns with old .38 Auto pistols in the hands of ignorant owners.
I have .45 ACP and 9mm pieces aplenty, and I know that there isn't a big difference between hot 9mm Luger and .38 Super performance. There's a limit on pressures in .38 Super because the standard 1911 design leaves a bit of the case wall unsupported over the end of the feed ramp. You'll see a bulge in cases there if you get too enthusiastic with your loads.

My opinion formed when I was a child drooling over Shooter's Bibles was that a Government Model in .38 Super with nickel plating was the epitome of an automatic pistol, Browning High Powers with Renaissance engraving notwithstanding. I still feel that way. The .38 Super will always be a classic to me.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
The 380 had 8 names out of the gate kind of like the 38 Short. 9mm corto/Kurtz and 9×17 come to mind right away.
Yep, it got called a lot of different names but its wide distribution in countries with different languages is a testament to its popularity.

I’m sure Colt and FN were happy to sell pistols with whatever designation you wanted stamped on it. :)
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
I've had a Rock Island Armory 1911 .38 Super since 2016. Mine is nickel plated, and it's plated inside and out. That reduced some critical dimensions and made it very tight fitting. It's finicky about chambering cartridges; I have to pay close attention to bullet sizing, seating so the base of the bullet ogive doesn't jam against the bore throat, and run them through a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die to make sure the outside cartridge dimensions will fit. The groove diameter is .352". It handles jacketed loads slick as a whistle. It's more accurate than I am. I've used Starline Super Comp brass from the beginning and never had a round fail to eject properly. RIA lists the extractor as the same part for .38 Super and 9mm. I have a lot of WC820 and Accurate #9, and run 124 & 125 grain bullets at about 1300 FPS for jacketed, 1350 for cast. Hodgdon's data indicate you can get a little more speed out of Accurate #7, but I've never tried it.

The semi-rimless case is what John Browning thought best for auto pistol cartridges. The early .38 Automatic colt pistols headspaced on the rim and supported the rim around most of its circumference. The semi-rimless cases worked fine there. Those pistols became obsolete in the 19209s and sales were low, but there continued to be some demand for a .38 Auto pistol. When the idea to make the Government Model in .38 Auto as a replacement for the old model .38s came along, they continued headspacing on the rim as they always had, but the feed ramp and extractor took out too much of the surface the rim seated against, making the rim support unstable. That didn't get recognized and corrected until BAR-STO made barrels headspacing on the case mouths, I think in the late '70s or early '80s.

As for the confusion about nomenclature, when the converted Government Model came out, it was "Colt's Super .38." That was the gun name. The cartridge it was chambered for was the old .38 Automatic. Originally it was loaded with 130 grain bullets at a rated 1190 FPS and Colt advertised it as "Almost 1200 FPS!" After the Super .38 pistol was brought out, it was realized that it was a much stronger pistol and could handle higher pressures and velocities. Remington brought out ".38 Super Automatic" cartridges loaded with 130 grain bullets at 1275 FPS, which was long the standard. FMJ, SP, and JHP factory loads were all available. Maj. Julian Hatcher opined in The American Rifleman when the Super .38 was announced that it would be useful for lawmen who needed to have capability to penetrate "bulletproof vests" and car bodies. It had long been recognized that the old 1900 Military .38 Auto and its derivatives weren't strong enough. The wedge that stopped the slide could break and let the slide fly off to the rear and hit the shooter, much as some Beretta 92s did later. So the standard .38 Auto was downloaded to a muzzle velocity of 1060 FPS and max pressure of 26,000 PSI. .38 Super cartridge boxes always carried warnings to only use them in Colt's Super .38 and Government Model pistols, but lots of folks never read or follow directions. In 1974 SAAMI added the +P designation to the .38 Super as an additional safety warning. That doesn't mean they're loaded to higher pressures than .38 Super ammo without the +P designation. I notice that advertised factory ballistics for .38 Super cartridges now are mostly down to the velocity of original .38 Auto cartridges, doubtless for liability concerns with old .38 Auto pistols in the hands of ignorant owners.
I have .45 ACP and 9mm pieces aplenty, and I know that there isn't a big difference between hot 9mm Luger and .38 Super performance. There's a limit on pressures in .38 Super because the standard 1911 design leaves a bit of the case wall unsupported over the end of the feed ramp. You'll see a bulge in cases there if you get too enthusiastic with your loads.

My opinion formed when I was a child drooling over Shooter's Bibles was that a Government Model in .38 Super with nickel plating was the epitome of an automatic pistol, Browning High Powers with Renaissance engraving notwithstanding. I still feel that way. The .38 Super will always be a classic to me.
“… The groove diameter is .352". …….” ?

That seems awfully tight for groove diameter. (measured from the bottom of one groove to the bottom of an opposite groove or the diameter of a circle that is tangent to the base of all the grooves), Did you mean to write bore diameter or across the tops of the lands?

“…..The semi-rimless case is what John Browning thought best for auto pistol cartridges……” I think that was true for his early pistol cartridges but by as early as 1905 he had embraced the rimless configuration. The semi-rimmed designs worked, and were in wide distribution by that point; so there was no going back and redesigning those. It is also telling that the semi-rimmed concept seems to have died out by the late 1910’s and most semi-auto cartridges after that were either rimless or bottlenecked (40 S&W, 10mm, 357 SIG, etc.) I can’t think of a semi-rimmed casing that was introduced after the 38 Super and that was just a hotter 38 ACP.
“…….. So the standard .38 Auto was downloaded to a muzzle velocity of 1060 FPS and max pressure of 26,000 PSI. “ I’m not sure I would characterize the 38 ACP as being “DOWNLOADED” after the introduction of the 38 Super. I think it might be more accurate to say the 38 ACP had always been loaded to lower pressures and the 38 Super was a physically identical cartridge loaded to higher pressures.



“…38 Super cartridge boxes always carried warnings to only use them in Colt's Super .38 and Government Model pistols, but lots of folks never read or follow directions. …” Totally agree.

“In 1974 SAAMI added the +P designation to the .38 Super as an additional safety warning. That doesn't mean they're loaded to higher pressures than .38 Super ammo without the +P designation. “ Also agree. The +P designation was not a new cartridge just an additional label to help differentiate the 38 Super from the older/weaker 38 ACP.

 

Ricochet

Member
I explained why the groove diameter is .352". They made a normal 9mm bore barrel and sent it out to a Filipino plating shop that nickel plated it inside and out. It's a tight bore! The slide fits much tighter on the rails than a standard RIA .45 I've compared it to. I sat and cycled it hundreds of times before putting it in use. Pre-Super .38 Auto fired a 130 grain bullet at 1190 FPS. Modern .38 Auto is rated at 1060 FPS. That's downloaded in my book. Standard Winchester-Western and Remington-UMC .38 Super was rated at 1275 FPS in the 60s. I've found factory .38 Super rated at velocities down around 1200 FPS in recent years, but was pleased just now to check on Armscor's site for their .38 Super 130 grain FMJ, and they say 1357 FPS. (I have a couple of new boxes of those, unfired.) Not being argumentative, but I read everything I could find about cartridges growing up, and recently I've spent days researching everything I can find on the Web about .38 Super (including lots of stuff from misinformed folks and people who repeated what the misinformed said.) The American Rifleman had a really good article on the history of the .38 Super some years ago. A little Googling will turn it up.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I have read that all the ACP's are rimmed.

The 45 Auto is inaccurately called a ACP it is a 45 Auto as the 380 is.

Not sure of actual truth. I have looked/searched for old data to see. Its one of those 45 Long Colt vs 45Colt things...

Last I read on that was BOTH/EITHER was Correct.

CW
My understanding, for 50 some years, is that ACP stood for Automatic Colt(s) Pistol. I don't quite follow why that is inaccurate. The old advertising used the ACP/Automatic Colt Pistol in the ad.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
I explained why the groove diameter is .352". They made a normal 9mm bore barrel and sent it out to a Filipino plating shop that nickel plated it inside and out. It's a tight bore! The slide fits much tighter on the rails than a standard RIA .45 I've compared it to. I sat and cycled it hundreds of times before putting it in use. Pre-Super .38 Auto fired a 130 grain bullet at 1190 FPS. Modern .38 Auto is rated at 1060 FPS. That's downloaded in my book. Standard Winchester-Western and Remington-UMC .38 Super was rated at 1275 FPS in the 60s. I've found factory .38 Super rated at velocities down around 1200 FPS in recent years, but was pleased just now to check on Armscor's site for their .38 Super 130 grain FMJ, and they say 1357 FPS. (I have a couple of new boxes of those, unfired.) Not being argumentative, but I read everything I could find about cartridges growing up, and recently I've spent days researching everything I can find on the Web about .38 Super (including lots of stuff from misinformed folks and people who repeated what the misinformed said.) The American Rifleman had a really good article on the history of the .38 Super some years ago. A little Googling will turn it up.
You've slugged the bore and after being nickel plated "Inside and out", it has a groove diameter .003" under the nominal diameter of a typical 9mm/38 Super bullet?
SAAMI specs show a .355" groove diameter and a .346" bore. Now, not every gun will be in line with that but .352" seems really tight.
Barrel bores can be hard chromed but I've never heard of nickel plating the inside of a bore. Not saying your's isn't, just outside of my experience.

As for ratings of factory ammo - companies can choose to load thier ammo however they wish as long as it doesn't exceed SAAMI standards. So the commerical loadings may be lower but the standards didn't change.
 
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RBHarter

West Central AR
I have a pair of 45 Colts carbines with .450 groove and like a .442 bore . They don't seem to care either way about.452,.453, or .454 sizing . Handy because I generally pair the 16" with the RBH which wants a .454 vs the S&W 45 S&W that won't chamber more than a .453 .

The brasser Pietta 44 C&B is .426×.440 . It shoots great but it's intimidating to cram a .454 ball in a .448 chamber knowing it's going into a .440 barrel . It's definitely not , even if it were a steel frame , a candidate for a conversion cylinder unless it was in the 44 heeled cartridge.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Rim design is what it is. I'll wager that John Browning had a good chuckle at the Ordnance Bureau's expense when the half-moon clip was birthed to support the rimless 45 ACP cases in Colt New Service and S&W N-frame revolvers as a WWI expedient. A semi-rimmed case might have worked with D/A revolver extractors just fine. And who knew that the moon clip would STILL be going strong and getting upgraded 106 years later--and that S&W would continue building revolvers that chambered the 45 ACP and Auto Rim into the 21st Century? I know i am quite enamored of the 45 ACP/AR revolver in my gun safe--the S&W Model 625 x 4".

I'm not certain, but some years back when I started shooting with the Burrito Banditti at Inland F&GA I think it was Buckshot that pointed out a design element on the Russian Mosin-Nagant case rim--the angle cut on the bottom edge of said rim, which rims are generously proportioned. Buckshot set up serial rim lock scenarios in one of his M-N rifle magazines, and those conditions were overcome easily by just pushing a bit harder on the bolt handle as it was moved forward to close. It is a simple design feature, and the Russians still use the 7.62 x 54R cartridge in full-auto weapon systems to this day. If it ain't broke, don't fix it--the 135-year-old Rooskikh design gives up little to the much younger 7.62 x 51 NATO/308 Winchester ballistically.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
That angle on the base of the Rooskie case always caught my eye! And here I thought I was the only one... ;)
 

Ricochet

Member
You've slugged the bore and after being nickel plated "Inside and out", it has a groove diameter .003" under the nominal diameter of a typical 9mm/38 Super bullet?
SAAMI specs show a .355" groove diameter and a .346" bore. Now, not every gun will be in line with that but .352" seems really tight.
Barrel bores can be hard chromed but I've never heard of nickel plating the inside of a bore. Not saying your's isn't, just outside of my experience.

As for ratings of factory ammo - companies can choose to load thier ammo however they wish as long as it doesn't exceed SAAMI standards. So the commerical loadings may be lower but the standards didn't change.
Yes, that's all correct. It's VERY tight.