43-287B

[Brad]

The berms are really dry right now. Perfect for collecting scrap.

I sized some of the new alloy bullets tonight. The sides of the nose get a slight rub but not much. Just enough to make them shiny but not enough to move lead.

 

[freebullet]

Maybe your cutting the sprue to soon or late. I have some prebent 22 bullets. I cut the sprue to late & the bullets bent with the sprue cut. Im shooting them anyway.

 

[fiver]

the annealed check tends to flow with the bullet a bit better, but it's main attribute is it doesn't try to open back up after it is sized onto the check stem.
if it does open just a titch it can grab at things as it moves forward, especially if it is shoved forward faster than the front of the bullet.
the softer check also allows the sides to take the rifling better.

a gas checks job is of course to stop gas cutting, but it also helps the bullet hold the rifling better and it is what steers the bullet when it leaves the muzzle.
it's an area that is overlooked by soo many shooters, they just shove it on and size the bullet without anymore thought [other than they cost 40$ a box]

 

[Brad]

These checks go on square. They fit about perfect, Tom just makes it happen. The size die is such that the bullet sits upright with about 1/4" stick above the top of the die. I can easily start the bullet straight with the check neatly in place. Lower the ram onto the check and gently push into die.
Rick got me thinking that sizing bullets is a process that needs to be done with some care. Just dropping a bullet and yanking the handle isn't likely to keeps bullets straight. I will admit I do that for mass production handgun bullets but when I want long range accuracy I pay some attention.
Annealing checks is another simple thing to test.

 

[fiver]

I'd put it on the list,,,, but the alloy is where I'd look first.
your shooting well enough that diagnosis is just picking and poking to refine what your seeing.

 

[Ian]

I went back to page one and looked at an as-cast bullet, the pressure deformation alone during the launch, not to mention the crookedness, is actually astonishing. Way too much pressure or way too little bullet strength is the biggest problem here, depending on how you look at it.

 

[Brad]

What really got me thinking about bullet strength was the discussion a week or so ago about how adding tin can alter how the bullet responds to pressure. Made me really think about using tin to alter the flow characteristics of the alloy while making the smallest possible change in the alloy.
I really want to recover more bullets for comparison. Seeing how different alloys look when fired on the same day would be interesting. I like to compare on same day as the berm conditions will be similar.

 

[Brad]

Here is one of the bullets sized and lubed today. Easy to see how lightly the nose is sized.

 

[freebullet]

So, then a slower powder might work better for the strength of alloy being used? Or mod the alloy for the load, seems easier to change powder. Good looking bullet.

I seem to recall Rick mention some loads used in his adventures, they included slower powder, just sayin'.

 

[fiver]

yep he went to 1680.
it is teetering on too slow, but the push it gives wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

[Brad]

I think sometime down the road I will try 4227 and possibly even 1680 to see what happens. The 1680 probably won't give as much velocity and will leave some unburned powder but willl certainly give a softer launch.

 

[Ian]

Back to what Fiver wrote a few posts back...I see a void in the lube there in that last photo. I've never proved it with recovered bullets but have always wondered just how much variance we get in bullet squish when pushing the ragged edge of an alloy's strength and have irregularities in our lube.

 

[fiver]

iv'e never been able to prove it by shooting but I have seen what happens when you squish or bump a bullet with lube and without lube in a groove in a swage die.

 

[Rick]

Velocities are as follows
CCI 350- 1307 fps
Fed 155-1206
Fed 150-1219

Kind of interesting that the Fed 155 was slower than the Fed 150. We assume that a mag primer will give more velocity but not always.
The CCI is certainly the king of velocity here.

First, this is a target load not a mastodon load. You aren't (or shouldn't be) looking for which is fastest. Fastest is meaningless here. Use the chrono to determine which has the most uniform burn. You didn't post the important chrono numbers, standard deviation and extreme spread but my guess would be the CCI was more consistent.

I still think the load is too hot at 21.5 gr H-110, try 1/2 grain less as the next test. Yes a slower powder could help as could a stronger alloy but even there the load is too hot. Your CCI primer load of 1307 fps is nearly the same velocity as the most accurate and winningest 44m 240 gr jacketed load in silhouette at 1320 fps even though your bullet is considerably heavier.

I used the 357m in silhouette far more than the 44m. for a long time I used 16.0 gr H-110 with a 188 gr bullet and the Fed 205. When I tested the CCi 550 velocity was up about 80 fps, S.D., E.S. AND 200 meter groups were all cut in half.

I did test 1680 in the 357m and it actually shot fairly well but in the 357 case I simply ran out of room before the velocity goal was met. About one more grain could have worked, at the time I planned on having a mold cut of the RCBS 180 silhouette bullet with the crimp groove move closer to the bullet base to allow less bullet in the case and more powder room. Just never did get around to that. Never tried 1680 in the 44m.
.

 

[Brad]

I need to look at SD and ES. The chrony picked up a few shots from a guy next to me so the stats the chrony produced are meaningless. I am certain I didn't have any rounds with a MV under 500 fps!
I have lots of areas to explore. I will look at less powder. I have a higher Sb/Sn alloy already cast and ready to load.
Rick, ever try 4227 in 44 mag? The 1680 is likely too slow but can be given a go easily enough.

Getting meaningful data is going to take some time.

 

[freebullet]

I bet that sweet chrony will somehow let you delete (either on it or the puter) the known offending shots from the string for some usable data.

 

[Brad]

The data is in a spreadsheet already, I just need to tell it what I want for stats.

 

[Rick]

That "sweet chrony" shouldn't even be picking up other shots but yes, they can be deleted. Looks in the video like it's aimed across the range somewhat.

Don't randomly discount 1680, I very nearly had it working in the 357m. The key to really slow powder is a heavy for caliber bullet. You won't get it working without the weight to get it burning well.

 

[Brad]

CCI 350 ES 38, SD 14.5
Fed 155 ES 130 SD 35
Fed 150 ES 56 SD 22.7

Not to surprising the groups ended up looking the way they did.

 

[Brad]

Ok Rick, with 1680 it is a matter of powder space. The longer case along with less bullet in the case means I have a bit more space for powder. Should help but will it help enough?
Certainly will want a mag primer with 1680, or so I would think?