Advice: Lead alloy and bhn

[burbank.jung]

I used my MP Mold for the first time today. My plan is mix .22lr range lead into rations of 10:1, 16:1, 20:1 and compare bullet expansion into jugs of water. I don't have much tin. So today I used a few ingots made only from the .22lr range lead and cast around 400 4-160 HP bullets. The weight came out to be 158gr. From what I've been told, this lead may contain 3% Antinomy but no tin. The ingots tested at 10 bhn which is close to 20:1. Here is my question. Is this alloy too soft and will an accuracy load using an alloy with additional tin be that much different? Has anyone cast with indoor range scrap lead that was primarily .22lr lead?

 

[richhodg66]

I'd always heard that .22 LR scrap tended to be about 1% antimony. Might be a bit soft for good accuracy and no leading with full house .357 loads, especially if the bullet is plain based.

Tin doesn't harden things much, mainly makes things cast better. Seems I've read where bullets for rifles of .45-70 class back in the day were generally 20 to 1 lead to tin and that seemed to work for them.

 

[Spindrift]

I’ve used .22lr lead from an indoor range. I sent some for analysis, my alloy had 1% antimony.

Regarding the tin, you only need enough to get good fill-out.

If you powder coat the bullets, you don’t have to worry about the hardness.

 

[Winelover]

Just how many HP's do you actually need, to be worried about making them out of a unknown alloy? Relegate your unknown alloy to practice/plinking loads. Cast your serious bullets out of known alloys. Can't go wrong with 20-1 alloy for HP's, under I700 fps. Have shot 20-1 out of carbines and pistols without any leading. When in doubt, use a GC designed bullet. It's good insurance. I don't PC, either.

BTW, how do you test BHN on an ingot? It's not the prefered method.

I almost never add tin to my alloys. Unless, making ratio alloys like 20-1, 30-1, etc.

 

[Bret4207]

Stop worrying about the specific alloy and what you THINK you have and shoot it so you can see what it does. Without an actual lab to assay the contents of the alloy all you're doing is guessing, and Bhn is way down the list of relevency. But as long as we're guessing, guess what? Multiple different alloys can work really great if you work with them enough to know what your alloy/mould gun combo want. It's not as simple as such and such an alloy at Bhn# whatever is the only thing that will work.

Load some up, start low and see what the gun/mould/alloy combo tell you.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

^^THIS^^

I shoot allot of RF range scrap. My primary Range Lead is RF lead. Mine hovers 11bhn. Some 12 some 10bhn.

Powder Coated I have shot to 2k NO BULLET FOULING!!

Often I add supah hard or Mono to richen it up. Sometimes tin.

I do not like it mixed with Just tin. I use pure for that.

CW

 

[Dimner]

An alternative opinion..

Some of us do worry about the content of alloy even without assay. It allows us to estimate and make educated guesses on what should be added to the mix so it can be tested and altered if needed. The final result being a successful alloy that can be made into large batch with the known components we have on hand. Even if we do not exactly know the elemental composition, we test to see how it works

Asking for a starting point on what 22lr may consist of... is a necessary/valid question. In this case the OP sounds like he was told his alloy had a composition something that sound more like the average composition of clip on wheel weights. No (or little tin) and 3% antimony.

I was/am in a similar spot. I can get unprocessed indoor range lead at about $0.45/lb. Makes buying any kind of 100% known lead alloy awfully hard to swallow. So i bought enough that smelted down to 400lbs. I suspect mine is .5 Sn and 1%Sb. There is a mix of handgun and 22lr shooting at that range. That of course is a guess and is used as a baseline.

Spindrift's post is what I would use as a base line for 22lr lead. Then, personally I would add another half percent (0.5%) tin to the range lead. With the result hoping for a close to 1:1 Sn/Sb alloy. Only adding 0.5% tin is so there isn't much of a chance of adding too much in ratio with the antimony. Even a .5:1 Sn/Sb should be decent.

Shoot those in the jugs, see how they do. Alter alloy as needed based on the results.

I spent the better part of yesterday making myself some 1:1 (140lbs) and 2.5:2.5 (350lbs). I'll treat them as these ratios, even though not 100% sure. I do know however, that unless my initial estimation of the range lead is way off, I'll have close to as much Sn as Sb. Always erroring on the side of Sb being greater.

Edited: so words makey the sense

 

[Winelover]

Nothing wrong having a unknown/guesstimated alloy. l have and use my own Recovered Bullet Alloy (designated RBA) re-smelted from my backyard range. It's a hodgepodge of whatever I recover from my range. BHN varies year to year, depending on how much and what I shoot. Usually, it stays from 13-15 BHN. However, I have no way of knowing Sn or SB composition. It is dedicated practice or plinking ammo.

I purchase pure lead and linotype from Rotometals. Mix that, usually three part pure to one part lino. No tin, added. BHN, measured by an LBT tester, yields 14-15 after thirty days. That's my alternate alloy for most everything else. Can be used air cooled for pistol or carbines. Holds together in a sand berm when HP's are cast from it. Oven heat treated for rifle velocities.

For hunting alloy, it's known ratio alloy.............20-1 made from 20# pure lead (from Rotometals) and one roll of 95/5 plumbing solder. BHN is 8-9 when air cooled after thirty days. Use it for solids, cup points and HP's.

Muzzle loaders get only pure lead.

My carry guns are loaded with factory ammo. I let the major manufactures do the research and development...............especially when short barrels are involved. I do practice with cast, though.

 

[richhodg66]

I have a lot of tin and a steady source of more of it. Bought about 200 lbs of pure (roof flashing and pipe) for 15 bucks at an estate sale a few months ago and had a lot of linotype from an earlier good deal.

I too, am one who never really worried much about exact alloys, but I went to the trouble to mix carefully by weight a batch of Lyman #2 alloy during Winter to cast bullets for my .30-06 target rifle. I've been chasing a real tack driver cast load for that rifle, so I figured it would pay to really be careful about consistency and repeatability.

 

[Brad]

I use range scrap from an outdoor range for everything. It works so I just keep on using it.
It is easy to over think alloy for most shooting.

 

[burbank.jung]

I powder coated the bullets I had cast yesterday with one coat. Yet, even though there is now a soft jacket around the bullet, it can obturate and effect accuracy, yes? The amount of antinomy given to me was probably 1%. I forgot.. At least there will be a standard among the .22lr recovered lead. If I mix recovered .22lr lead into a 4lb pot, pour the contents into a Lee ingot mold, and later take even sized pieces from each .22lr lead ingot, I'm guessing that I have a pretty even mix. I almost do the same with ingots I've made from range scrap and by using the same bhn ingots, my bullet weight was pretty much the same. Or, my technique has improved. I bhn test my ingots by letting them age for a few months, then I separate them by hardness. The hardest I save for .40cal, next hardest for 9mm, then the softest for .38 and .45. The softest ingots I have is 11bhn and I'll cast some HP bullets using this unknow lead alloy for testing too.

 

[Bret4207]

An alternative opinion..

Some of us do worry about the content of alloy even without assay. It allows us to estimate and make educated guesses on what should be added to the mix so it can be tested and altered if needed. The final result being a successful alloy that can be made into large batch with the known components we have on hand. Even if we do not exactly know the elemental composition, we test to see how it works

Asking for a starting point on what 22lr may consist of... is a necessary/valid question. In this case the OP sounds like he was told his alloy had a composition something that sound more like the average composition of clip on wheel weights. No (or little tin) and 3% antimony.

I was/am in a similar spot. I can get unprocessed indoor range lead at about $0.45/lb. Makes buying any kind of 100% known lead alloy awfully hard to swallow. So i bought enough that smelted down to 400lbs. I suspect mine is .5 Sn and 1%Sb. There is a mix of handgun and 22lr shooting at that range. That of course is a guess and is used as a baseline.

Spindrift's post is what I would use as a base line for 22lr lead. Then, personally I would add another half percent (0.5%) tin to the range lead. With the result hoping for a close to 1:1 Sn/Sb alloy. Only adding 0.5% tin is so there isn't much of a chance of adding too much in ratio with the antimony. Even a .5:1 Sn/Sb should be decent.

Shoot those in the jugs, see how they do. Alter alloy as needed based on the results.

I spent the better part of yesterday making myself some 1:1 (140lbs) and 2.5:2.5 (350lbs). I'll treat them as these ratios, even though not 100% sure. I do know however, that unless my initial estimation of the range lead is way off, I'll have close to as much Sn as Sb. Always erroring on the side of Sb being greater.

Edited: so words makey the sense

My point was that you have what you have. Worrying about what you think might be in it is wasted effort. Shoot it and see. THEN start figuring what the results indicate might be a good way to go as far as juicing it up, down or sideways. If you had 22 scrap from a club where everyone shot strictly Eley, then you could get a better guess of what's there to start with, but if it's everything from Aguila to Winchester it's gonna be a mix mash. IME adding anything before you test in the guns you want to use it in to get a baseline often means you end up wasting expensive additives.

 

[Rockydoc]

I powder coated the bullets I had cast yesterday with one coat. Yet, even though there is now a soft jacket around the bullet, it can obturate and effect accuracy, yes? The amount of antinomy given to me was probably 1%. I forgot.. At least there will be a standard among the .22lr recovered lead. If I mix recovered .22lr lead into a 4lb pot, pour the contents into a Lee ingot mold, and later take even sized pieces from each .22lr lead ingot, I'm guessing that I have a pretty even mix. I almost do the same with ingots I've made from range scrap and by using the same bhn ingots, my bullet weight was pretty much the same. Or, my technique has improved. I bhn test my ingots by letting them age for a few months, then I separate them by hardness. The hardest I save for .40cal, next hardest for 9mm, then the softest for .38 and .45. The softest ingots I have is 11bhn and I'll cast some HP bullets using this unknow lead alloy for testing too.

How do you BHN test INGOTS?

 

[358156 hp]

How do you BHN test INGOTS?

My LBT tester will do it, as will some others. The problem is that individual bullets cool much, much faster than ingots, and the rate of cooling directly impacts the subjects hardness. So individual bullets cool faster, and that makes the bullets harder than ingots cast from the exact same alloy if antimony is part of the mix.

 

[Brad]

BHN testing ingots is like deciding to season your food based on eating salt.

 

[burbank.jung]

BHN testing ingots is like deciding to season your food based on eating salt.

why is bhn testing ingots like eating salt? When I first cast ingots I tested the hardness with pencils. Months later I repeated the test and the hardness changed and stabilized. With 38 and .45acp having lower chamber pressures than 40cal and .357, I chose the hardness standard for the higher chamber pressure. I softer lead could work with a lower charge but how about a higher charge? The Lyman manual even mentions harder alloys for higher velocities. I haven't made such a test yet to compare but would you say that a lower bhn cast bullet will group the same as a higher bhn cast bullet?

 

[burbank.jung]

How do you BHN test INGOTS?

I currently scratch them with pencils but might modify a large 5lb slide hammer and drip the weight from a certain height on a pure lead ingot to an unknown alloy and do a calculation comparing the two indentations.

 

[Dimner]

358156 hp has the right of it.

Testing the same alloy in ingots vs actual bullets will give two different hardness readings. If you are concerned about hardness you want the hardness value that is going be be traveling down your barrel, not a big ol ingot.

So, yes it's possible to BHN test ingots, it's not all that helpful.

As to how to BHN test ingots, or let's say something other than bullets, I have done it using both the 1lb ingots from the RCBS ans Lee ingot molds as well as the lee 1/2 lb mold. Still isn't the best idea, but can be done.

 

[Brad]

Ingots cool at a far different rate from a bullet. This affects the hardness.
BHn can be manipulated easily by rate of cooling.
I can easily have 2 very different alloys that test the same hardness but behave very differently,

 

[Bret4207]

why is bhn testing ingots like eating salt? When I first cast ingots I tested the hardness with pencils. Months later I repeated the test and the hardness changed and stabilized. With 38 and .45acp having lower chamber pressures than 40cal and .357, I chose the hardness standard for the higher chamber pressure. I softer lead could work with a lower charge but how about a higher charge? The Lyman manual even mentions harder alloys for higher velocities. I haven't made such a test yet to compare but would you say that a lower bhn cast bullet will group the same as a higher bhn cast bullet?

Because lead alloys cool and "harden" differently depending on the speed at which they cool, eg- water quenching bullets gives you a different Bhn than air cooling. All you're getting is a relative difference between your various ingots. If you water quenched some ingots (not recommended!) you'd get a much different reading than air cooled. And using pencils is guess work to start with. If you really are going to jump whole hog onto the "Bhn is the answer" bandwagon then get a real tester like the Cabine Tree or LBT.

Lyman says a lot of stuff about cast that ranges from good advice to outright nonsense, depending on what info you're talking about. I will repeat again, FIT IS KING. There is static fit and dynamic fit and Bhn is part of dynamic fit, but only a part of it, not the whole ball of wax. Yes, a lower Bhn bullet can group as well or better than a higher Bhn bullet. It all depends on FIT. You want proof? Go get some of those "HARDCAST" commercial bullets with the pretty crayon lube and load them up full bore and blast away. Unless they just happen to fit well, and that covers a myriad of elements, you will not have good groups and you'll be spending time getting your barrel free of lead. But those bullets are HARD, right? You can take a Bhn 30+ bullet and lead the barrel into a sewer pipe easily. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt!!!

Go check those ingots in a few more months, they Bhn will probably have changed again and will for several years.