Handgun for Bear Country Fishing

[sundog]

My son traipses around in Colorado bear habitat fishing. I'm trying to convince him he needs to have along a regular companion for protection. As far as I'm concerned, bear spray don't cut it. So far I've come up with a Ruger Redhawk Alaskan in 44 mag (454 Casull/45 Colt appears to be nonobtainiun at this time) and Glock 20 in 10mm. I can load cast solids for these in some heavier weights as required.

I read somewhere recently that the Glock 20 is gaining in popularity in Alaska.

Input is appreciated from anyone with experience with this.

 

[richhodg66]

When I was stationed in Alaska and asked about a .44 Magnum for bear defense, one of the locals told me, "yeah, get a .44 Mag, then the first thing you want to do is get a hacksaw and a couple of files and cut the front sight off and smooth things up." I asked if that was a method to get on target quicker or keep from shooting high under stress and he said "No, that's so it won't hurt so bad when the bear shoves it up your ass."

Honestly, I think a face full of super charged CS tear gas is gonna cause one to draw back and reevaluate the situation. Chances of killing one fast with a pistol are almost nil, and in the mean time, he's hurt and pissed off. That bear has felt pain before, probably never smelled CS before, I think just the shock of it would be more likely to get a bear to cease work long enough to do something.

 

[JustJim]

I have a "bear problem": if bears are in the neighborhood, they come around and say hi. This has made for some interesting encounters over the years . . . . I've never been comfortable holding nothing but a fishing rod when talking with a bear that is standing within 15' (though it beats holding cup of coffee and half a danish while admonishing the bear cubs that just stole my plate of bacon and eggs). I want options.

A pistol is worthless without training and practice. If he'll do that, the Glock 20 loaded with rounds duplicating the original Norma load is an appealing option. Less horsepower but similar penetration and more rounds, and easier to holster securely but have quickly accessible. (Not a Glock fan, but tools for tasks and horses for courses.)

I've seen bear spray used 3 times. Once, went just as the manufacturers would want. Once resulted in the bear licking his lips then walking away, looking over his shoulder every-so-often. The third instance resulted in a head shake and what I'm still not certain was a bluff charge; I threw a rock and hit her in the face, and she walked away stiff-legged, occasionally growling.

 

[JBinMN]

Sundog, I have no practical experience with bear attacks, so I can't do much more than offer what others have said, and I am not a big believer in "anecdotal evidence" as the stories sometimes( more often than not) they are "stretched a mite") so I am not gonna try to share anything like that.
Regardless the topic has come into my mind & some of the folks around here about such things & I prefer to let folks "do their own research" to satisfy their curiosity & make their Own decisions about such things.

While it could be considered "anecdotal", I do have the experience(s) of my little sister who was living in Alaska near Fairbanks in a cabin a few miles out of town with the last mile or so only a walking path.
One time when she was back visiting my mother in Charlottesville, VA & I happened to be there at the time, she asked me to go shooting one of my 12 ga & my Ruger .44SRH. w/7-1/2 bbl, so she could "brush up" before her return to AK.

She had experienced a couple bear "visits" on the trail & as well at the cabin, but had not had the need to shoot at one in self defense. She also had bear spray, but was not confident in it. Windage at "bear attack range" using a firearm is not so finicky regarding wind direction as a spray is what I reckon she was thinking.

Anyway, the 12ga she wanted to shoot was a Rem. 870 pump which is what she had back in AK, but she also wanted to try the .44M as well to see if she wanted to have one of those in addition to the shotgun.

She shot both and was certainly more comfortable with the shotgun over the handgun.
I might add that while I am 6 feet & over 200#, my little sister is about 5'-4", and at the time likely weighed in around/less than 100#. Either firearm was quite a handful for her, but she was a "trooper" and "stepped up to the plate" and shot both with enthusiasm. After the "Fam-fire" she said that she would stick to the shotgun, but perhaps get a .44M of some sort with a shorter bbl IF she decided to buy one.

So, there is just one example of someone who was no longer a cheechako(<sp?) , and was a confirmed "Sourdough" up there in AK, who preferred the shotgun at that time over a revolver. Although that is certainly not the case with everyone in bear country. I am sure most would go with what they felt most comfortable with carrying & and still have the power to stop an attack.

I rambled... oops.

Well, anyway, on occasion, even here in S.E. Minnesota we have sightings & bird feeder issues with the occasional bear. Even a couple turkey farms to the West of me have had trouble with them getting into the dumpsters where they put the dead turkeys. I have only hear about a shotgun being used to scare off the bear from one porch bird feeder by firing into the air,but that too is just anecdotal.

Over the last year or so, one of the contributors to Ammolands email news letter has accumulated a lot of news reports & such about bear attacks. I think his name is Wiengarten or something like that. He gathered quite a few instances about different firearms against bears & the use of sprays IIRC. That would be one place you might find more info. I am including a link to that group of news reports/stories:

Bear Attacks Archives

Bear Attacks: The Reality of Deterrents AmmoLand News & Journalist Dean Weingarten have documented hundreds of bear attacks on humans, prompting a close look at deterrents. Contrary to popular media portrayal, bear spray isn’t reliable. Factors like wind direction and bear aggression can reduce...

www.ammoland.com

Here is another link to explore:

Handgun Defenses Against Bear Attacks - 170 Documented Incidents, 98% Effective

There are now 170 documented cases, with 146 of those cases where handguns only are fired in defense against bear attacks. Handguns are effective 98% of the time.

www.ammoland.com

I used a search engine to find these links & here is the link for that as well if you might find it useful:

Startpage Search Results

www.startpage.com

G'Luck~! with your search as well as you & your sons decision-making about this attempt at preparedness.

P.S. - I have done a Lot of trout fishing in this area for many years, and while I have seen tracks of both cougar/mountain lion as well as bear tracks & scat, I did not start carrying a firearm when going fishing until I saw a bear crossing the road about 1/4 mile North of one trout stream local to me and that was 2 miles from another stream where I fish & woods ramble. I usually had both my dogs with me as a bit of warning if needed, but now Duke the choc. lab has gone to meet Jesus, so only Jasper the Aussie Shepard goes now, but I carry a 45ACP, or a 357M when I go rambling. Shotgun is too much for me to fish for trout & carry with slim likelihood of an encounter with a bear or cat, so I just carry what I think would be the best in the event of a chance encounter with big cat or bear. More likely to meet up with 2 legged hassles than the 4 legged ones. Nowadays & around here anyway.

Once again, G'Luck~!




Edited for spelling & syntax..... I think

 

[358156 hp]

Bbbbutttt I've had some very knowledgeable sounding internet guys tell me that 9mm is a perfectly adequate bear defense gun if you simply use non-expanding ammunition! And there have been a few others who said they kilt large black bears and even grizzly with them in an emergency. So far nobody has come forth and said that they shot a bear with 9mm and it didn't even slow them down.

I'm sure there must be a reason, but some said that hard cast 9mm was the ticket!

My choice would be the 44 mag over the 10mm. I still view 10mm as being in the 357 mag class. Some of the Alaskan Youtubers appear to be rethinking 10mm as well.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I am reminded of a passage from the book "African Rifles & Cartridges" by John Taylor. In chapter 11, "The revolver or Pistol as Auxiliary" he comments about carrying a revolver for protection. In that context he is referring to a handgun carried in addition to a long gun when dangerous game is being hunted but the advice is geared more towards the presence of dangerous animals, and not exclusively hunting dangerous animals.

This is a quote from that book and chapter, "When hunting on foot a revolver is a thing you may never need in a lifetime in the Bush - But if you do need it, you are likely to need it darned badly.".

He goes on to write about men mauled by dangerous animals and how possession of a handgun may have (almost certainly would have) saved them.

Taylor also writes about how some men, and he points to the British, were reluctant to be seen carrying a handgun as they feared being ridiculed more than they feared being mauled. The implication being that when your life is in danger, you will have no concerns about what others think of you.

In another book, and I cannot recall the exact title or author, the writer plainly states, "When one wants a handgun, one wants it very badly".

This is of course very similar to a parachute. One seldom needs a parachute and one hopes he will never need a parachute. But when one does need a parachute, one needs it right NOW, one wants it very badly and nothing else will do.

So, getting back to a handgun for defense against bears. I think it is safe to assume that if the need arises, the affair will be at very close range by that point. Penetration of the bullet is vitally important, and reliability is equally important. So, the criteria should be: 100% reliable, and enough power to get the bullet deep into the thing that is trying to kill you. It would be a plus if you could get more than 1 bullet deep into the offending critter.

Frankly, a pump action shotgun loaded with slugs would be my first choice, but I recognize that is not always practical or even possible. My next choice would be a big bore, DA revolver loaded with something that will penetrate bone, fat, muscle and hide.

A Glock in 10mm auto is also a candidate. The 10mm Auto is no joke when loaded to its full potential and that platform would give the user more rounds. It does run the risk of not cycling or the slide being pushed out of battery if the gun is in contact with the animal.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

First off, more importantly than WHAT. (As long as an appropriate caliber) Is how well one can shoot it.

Then and maybe not secondly, avoiding situations where you would need to use said firearm.

For many bear spray may be better option. Another is and as suggested a 12 ga shotgun. IMHO far away a better choice.

As stated above, one best defense is not to need a defense.
CW

 

[JWinAZ]

Warning: Bear Story (The veracity of bear stories is always a question. This one may have been embellished.)

This is a well known bear story in SE Arizona, and yes there were grizzlies here at one time. This takes place in Blue River Country. Fred Fritz and descendants are well known here. This telling is from the True West Magazine website.

The days of marauding bands of Apache were gone but life was still not easy working cattle in the rough mountainous ranges along the Blue River. Beef-killing bears were still numerous. One day in 1888 Fritz came across one of his range cows that been freshly killed by a grizzly. The bear charged and he jerked his pistol and fired, hitting it in the jaw. The grizzly then raked its four-inch claws down the length of Fritz’s body ripping off his clothing, including his leather chaps. The cowman fired off four more shots point blank but this only made the bear even more furious. Then he dropped to the ground and lay still. The bear backed off but each time Fritz tried to get up the animal charged again. “He chawed on one end for a while and then he turned me around and chawed on t’other end,” he said later.

Fighting for his life, Fritz pounded on the bear with the butt of his empty pistol until it broke. Then he pulled out his pocket knife and stabbed it until the blade snapped. He even pulled some kitchen matches out of his pocket and tried to set the grizzly on fire and still the bear kept mauling him.

The struggle finally ended when a relative arrived with a rifle and shot the bear. It took seven bullets to bring it down. Fritz lived another 18 years but never fully recovered from the attack.

 

[JustJim]

JWinAZ, I think I would have liked Fritz.

I'm not a shotgunner; I don't speak "pump shotgun". For that reason it would be a bad choice for me. Guys who grew up on pumps would rightly have a different opinion! (There's also the thought that if I can carry a shotgun, I can carry a rifle that I've shot so much I can shoot it without thinking.)

The original (pre-SAAMI) Norma load claimed a 200 gr. FMJ at ~1,200 fps. I got a measured velocity of around 1,150 fps from an early Glock 20. I used a load of AA#9 from the book to duplicate the load, and got over 1,225 fps with a linotype bullet. So yeah, a (heavy-bullet) 357 load is probably a fair comparison, but in a 15 shot platform. On one occasion I put down an almost-road-killed Angus cow with my handload, at about 25'. Bullet went in behind the left front leg, through the ribs and various internal organs, and broke the off-side shoulder. That put the cow on 1 leg and let me get close enough to finish the matter. Not ideal--I would have preferred the first shot to exit --but a fair demonstration of penetration potential.

In revolvers, the .480 Ruger might be worth considering. I had some ~480R loads I shot in my .475, and they had good penetration (not sure how much though, as the bullets exited the tree I was testing them on).

 

[oscarflytyer]

Inadvertently had what I now own and would carry fly fishing in bear and any ugly country wander up to my gunshow table and present itself for about 1/2 price, so I bought IT (used to fly fish in upper NE TN/working with NG/in drug and moonshine country/in Govt plate cars - TODAY I would carry this there as well!!!!)!

IT is a Ruger Redhawk 45 ACP/45 Colt. Round Butt. 4.2" bbl. Stainless. I love the thing. Can shoot it a bunch to be very familiar with less expensive 45 ACP, and also as std SD carry. If/when in ugly land - can go very heavy 45 Colt. I carry mine in an Azula pancake holster and it rides VERY well (and I'm semi-smallish - 5'9" 185)! In bear country/fly fishing I would opt for a Simply Rugged Sourdough Pancake chest rig. I would load it with 6x heavy 45 Colts and then have a pair of 6x moonclips on the rigging with 45 ACP for quick reloads. 18 rds all in all. If I weren't fishing, it would be all 12 ga riot gun, but for fishing this one is about as good as it gets considering

 

[Rick H]

I am an avid stream trout flyfisherman. I had a rather unpleasant experience with a pissed off black bear, spooking it while rounding a bend in the river as it was crossing. It hurried across the river at about 15 yds from me. Instead of running off as I was assured by "bear experts" it would.....the damn thing spun around in the thick undergrowth and followed me snapping its jaws/teeth as I was backpedaling in the direction I came from. All the while I was wondering what the hell I was going to do if it decided to do more than scare the crap out of me, armed as I was with a pocket knife and a fly rod while wearing waders.

Since that time I carry a 40S&W with 180gr Winchesters in a nylon shoulder rig while stream fishing. It isn't a cannon but I shoot it well, and as a last ditch weapon it beats the hell out of whipping the bear with a 8 1/2' graphite fly rod.

 

[fiver]

i dunno, a good whipping with a fly rod would make me quit.

the 10mm gained fame because of the round count, and the big news writeup when that dude in Utah finally killed the bear beating him down using his glock.
it's kind of the better option without having to go with something stupidly high priced.

i don't have one of those.
i do however own a 445 super mag and have a 4" barrel for it.
that is what i carry when i gotta wander the Mtn's. a bit north of here... 315gr. flat points [hard alloy in a 40 short case with a pair of canellures] and i can shoot it more than once in a row.

 

[Glaciers]

Boy another Bear vs. the shotgun, Glock, or the revolver.
Man for me this will have to wait till morning and two cups of coffee.
But one question: black or brown?

 

[fiver]

i'm talking Brown ones,, care less about the black ones.

 

[beagle]

Corky, you know from being in the Army, anything is better than nothing. I have zero experience with bears. I'm experienced with both the .44 Mag and Remington 870 with slugs and were I entending to consort with a bear, I beleive I'd prefer the 12 gauge 870 with slugs. Having said that, for portability I'd probably choose my 4" M29 as I'm familiar and proficient with it and endeaver to avoid bears at all cost. Last year I was at Yellowstone and a pamphlet was circulating that quoted an "expert" as saying a .45/70 should be the only rifle used for bear.
Bearing all this drivel, if you decide to equip the boy with a .44 Magnum, I got a mould that throws a 320 grain Keith that I'll donate a couple hundred bullets to the cause. Tailor them to John Taffin's loads of WW296 and he'll probably do well with a couple thousand rounds of "fam fire". If he don't stop one, at least the bear will go home limping.
Remember, the best solution with bears is to partner with a guy you can out run./beagle

 

[JonB]

When I was stationed in Alaska and asked about a .44 Magnum for bear defense, one of the locals told me, "yeah, get a .44 Mag, then the first thing you want to do is get a hacksaw and a couple of files and cut the front sight off and smooth things up." I asked if that was a method to get on target quicker or keep from shooting high under stress and he said "No, that's so it won't hurt so bad when the bear shoves it up your ass."

So, I went to Alaska's interior in 1997 to visit cousins. I hoped to do some river fishing. I asked around about Brown Bears and 44 mag revolvers (since 44 was my favorite). I got a similar story (like Rich's) by one fellow I knew and trusted. His punchline was, "hold the gun straight out as the bear runs at you, jam the gun into the bear's throat and when the muzzle touches his tonsils, pull the trigger."

 

[sundog]

Thanks, fellas, just the kind of conversation I was looking for. He's in blackie country for his fishing excursions. I agree with not going into an area known the be a problem - makes as much sense as taking a stroll in a gang banger hood after dinner out. He's also got the 12 ga pump thing handled, but as mentioned it can be a bit cumbersome when hip deep in a good trout stream. John, your comment about Army experience is pretty much at the fore of my thinking.

Bear spray is being reconsidered, but I'm still leaning toward a heavy caliber handgun - - need it and not have it can be a real problem.. He and I talk regularly about this. I'd get him involved here, but he and his lovely bride are busy raising two teenage boys. I suppose that's not as easy now as when he grew up. The whole family has a love for outdoors, fishing, camping, and shooting, along with many other interests including school and sports participation. They are growing up to be fine lads.

John, thanks on the bullet offer. I've got a 310 gas check that might be adequate if he decides that route. I've shot some of these in the past, and other then practice and that chance encounter, they are a bit much for regular day to day plinking, eh?

Please keep the ideas coming.

 

[richhodg66]

Carrying a pistol in the woods is not a bad idea at all, but I bet it would be a wholelot more likely to be pressed into service against a human adversary than a bear.

I feel safer in the woods than anywhere, and generally don't bother with a pistol if I have any kind of rifle or shotgun on me. When my boys were small and started hunting during youth season, I usually carried one even though I wasn't supposed to just because I was unwilling to accept a possibility where my kid might be hurt by some evli doer while I couldn't do anything about it.

I was muzzle loader hunting a few years back, alone like usualy, walking back to teh truck after dark and encoutered a group of three young guys, I saw and heard them before they did me, so I stopped and froze and watched them walk back to the parking area of the public tract I hunted on. I rarely ran across another person and when I did, it was plain what they're purpose was, this time there were three, after dark, dressed in shorts, T shirts, ball caps, i.e.n not hunting or other outdoor activities and coming from a direction where they had to buck some brush, not just wandering the lake shore. They were out of place, maybe they weren't up to anything, but it rattled me a bit and ever since, I'm a lot more wary when I'm out there than I used to be. I tend to try to be quiet and unobtrusive in the woods, good thing that time, all I had to do was just stop and stand still.

We talk a lot about bears, cougars, snakes, etc., but I bet if anybody looked at statistics, most people hurt by anything other than accidents while enjoying the outdoors and hurt by a human who was looking to victimize someone or didn't want a witness to what they happenned to be doing.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

/\ Agree 100% /\

The greatest danger comes from humans!

 

[Petrol & Powder]

We talk a lot about bears, cougars, snakes, etc., but I bet if anybody looked at statistics, most people hurt by anything other than accidents while enjoying the outdoors and hurt by a human who was looking to victimize someone or didn't want a witness to what they happenned to be doing.

It is the sad reality that this is true. Right off the top of my head I can think of several criminal events that occurred in remote locations. Criminals, by their very nature, want to conduct their felonious activity without witnesses.

Parks, leased hunting properties, nature preserves, national forests and other lands are frequented by criminals seeking victims. Sometimes they are simply looking for targets of robbery, but far more sinister acts occur as well. Add some mental illness to that predator and the danger becomes extreme.

I am suspicious of strangers encountered in remote areas. Simply being in the woods does not guarantee the stranger is of good character. I am polite and respectful during such encounters but never trusting.

I don’t live far from the Appalachian Trail and know people that have hiked all of it or portions of it. They all speak about the mentally ill individuals they encounter and the surprising frequency of those encounters.