heavy loads for a 45 acp which molds , Arsenal, Accurate, Lee, or NOE.

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I use the "45 BD" GB mould. A FN design, it works great in anything 45 cal I've tried it in. I don't know is "BD" (the designers handle on The Site Which Shall Not Be Named) is still around, but he did a heck of a job IMO. Glad I bought 2 moulds! I'll have to weigh a bullet, but I think they run about 240-245.
 

Walks

Well-Known Member
The Lee 230 is a dandy & cheap I prefer the conventional grease groove design. RCBS make one too slightly lighter but larger meplat. Both "TC" designs for perfect feeding.


CW

You're Welcome.

I tried the #454190 in .45ACP a really long time ago. Just in the old G.I. 1911A1, 50rds worth. Stock springs were all that were available in the mid 1970's. Those and Gold Cup springs. Lots of recoil, it was to satisfy My curiosity. No interest after that, 230-235gr is all I need.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I like 45 caliber pistols and revolvers. When I first got into my old trade, I greatly envied cop shops that authorized calibers like 41 and 44 Magnum, 45 ACP, and 45 Colt. A defensive pistol caliber whose decimal diameter starts with a '.4' is likely to be effective against ne'er-do-wells that conduct their depredations in an armed condition.

I am a big believer that bullet diameter is the caliber element most effective in halting exchanges of finality. Even illiterate mountain men in the fur trade era knew that a 36 caliber rifle was not as effective against 2- and 4-legged aggressors than was a .50"+ roundball. No roundball did a recipient much good at all, but the larger diameter sphere has been observed for several centuries to more reliably stop aggression, especially if a marginal hit is made.

We have all sorts of formulae that purport to predict 'Stopping power' of given bullets at given speeds. My favorite is Gen. Hatcher's Index Of Relative Stopping Power, or 'Hatcher Scale'. All of these formulae use a squaring of a ballistic element (bullet weight, velocity, or diameter) to arrive at their prediction.

I like Hatcher becuase it contains elements that hew more closely to real-world indicia than other calclations do.

1) It 'squares' the ballistic element (diameter)hat is demonstrably squared in the real world as the diameter is increased.

2) It uses 'mass' rather than static weight to express bullet weight--another nod to physics and reality.

3) It employs a 'Shape factor' to account for bullet form effects upon animated targets.

The data set for this IRSP is unlikely to be repeated again. As Gen. Hatcher alludes to in his texts, livestock ("beeves") was shot with pistol bullets to observe effects during the Thompson-LaGarde tests. The 45 ACP's design resulted from review of these tests--a .451" diameter 230 grain RN/FMJ bullet at 825-850 FPS. Another variable in the mix was our nation's experience in the Phillipines with the berserker Moro tribesmen. That lot of aggressors seemed less affected by the impact of the 38 Colt bullets than they were from the 45 Colt rounds that found their way across the Pacific. The 45 WORKED.

That message was heard by U.S. ordnance types, which is a remarkable event in history--desk-bound decision-makers actually acting decisively on the info provided by folks at the tip of the spear. What a sublime rarity.

My view--in the same way Gen. Patton called the M1 Garand rifle "The finest battle implement ever devised", I think LTC Cooper mirrored that sentiment in his promotion of the 45 ACP/1911A1 pistol as that rifle's first cousin. There were concerns early in my shop's autopistol adoption that the 45 ACP was difficult to master; it wasn't, even for non-enthusiast shooters.

"But the 45's speed means that it might not expand!" I loved that pogue-speak, that 230 WWB bullet expands well IME. My response? "It dARn sure won't SHRINK, either."
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
One of the little tidbits of the requirements that came out of Thompson-LaGarde tests, was the preference for lead bullets (no jacket) and if the bullet needed a jacket (for function or to meet some standard) that jacket should be thin.

I suspect, but have absolutley no way of proving this speculation, that if bare lead bullets had been permissible, the 200 grain weight projectile would have been adopted. The additon of a jacket made the increase to 230 grains more in-line with the performance they were seeking.
I also suspect that a bullet weight above 230 grains would have required a substanial re-design of the pistol and cartridge.
I believe that 230 grains really is near the upper limit of the 45 ACP cartridge when restricted to the 21K psi pressure limits.
Other cartridges can take advantage of heavier bullets in the .451'-.455" diameter range, but only with higher pressures, which really have no up-side in the 1911 platform.
 
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RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
One other tidbit is ammo storage, handling and feeding up the ramp. They wanted something better than 20/1 lead bullets.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
.Other cartridges can take advantage of heavier bullets in the .451'-.455" diameter range, but only with higher pressures, which really have no up-side in the 1911 platform.
The first ideations of the Colt Delta Elite/1911A1 in 10mmAuto bore that out quite well. 200 grain bullets @ 1200 FPS (The Norma loading) were 'A Bridge Too Far' in the 1911-pattern receivers. Reduction of bullet weight to 180 grains and reduction of velocity to 1125-1150 FPS kept the Colts uncracked.

As felon repellant, the 10mm in its current garb as listed above is 'Gilding the lily' just a bit. Its 40 Short & Weak understudy keeps right up with the 45 ACP in terms of fight-stopping with its 180 grain JHP @ 925-950 FPS. That isn't a new handgun development, those ballistics were duplicated in Colt Single Action revolvers 110 years before the 40 S&W saw the light of day--in the 38/40 WCF. H--l, 38/40 bullets were used in the mid-1970s for the first experiments with 10mm/40 caliber autopistols. There is truly very little that new under the sun, to paraphrase the late Frank Barnes in his Cartridges of the World.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
The Special Agent in charge of the whole program at Quantico retired to my little home town to live close to his daughter. His grandson was fascinated with fire engines, so I gave tours and visited with "Poppa".

The data showed that a flat nosed bullet of .400" at 1000 f/s was a "good" load. Management said that it had to a JHP, since they had staked their reputations on the JHP bullet. This was a low pressure load that was easy to shoot and not 100% expanding, but workable. The Hostage Rescue Team was to be issued the hot 1200 f/s load. The killer for the 10MM in the 1911 frame was that "small" people (take that for what it is worth) could not get a good grip on the big frame.

So, they cherry picked the data and we ended up with the 40 S&W on a small frame. IMHO it is not a failure as a cartridge, but styles and fashion changes over the years. I'm still good with 45 ACP with 200 grains at 850 f/s.
 

CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
Im of the same mentality.
Proper defensive pistol starts with a "4" in its caliber designation & makes 1000 fps @ its muzzle. I also like to see 200g of projectile. But I can hedge on that a bit. Bullet dia over velocity to a point.

(I dont even own a 9mm for defense. )

CW
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
The Special Agent in charge of the whole program at Quantico retired to my little home town to live close to his daughter. His grandson was fascinated with fire engines, so I gave tours and visited with "Poppa".

The data showed that a flat nosed bullet of .400" at 1000 f/s was a "good" load. Management said that it had to a JHP, since they had staked their reputations on the JHP bullet. This was a low pressure load that was easy to shoot and not 100% expanding, but workable. The Hostage Rescue Team was to be issued the hot 1200 f/s load. The killer for the 10MM in the 1911 frame was that "small" people (take that for what it is worth) could not get a good grip on the big frame.

So, they cherry picked the data and we ended up with the 40 S&W on a small frame. IMHO it is not a failure as a cartridge, but styles and fashion changes over the years. I'm still good with 45 ACP with 200 grains at 850 f/s.
Part of the same reason the NYSP supposedly went with the 45GAP in the Glock after the 9mm proved less than stellar. The days of the requirement for males of good character at least 6 feet tall ended long ago. The 45 short round was supposed to give an advantage to those of smaller stature. It was also a marketing ploy by Glock to mainline the 45GAP, which failed. The NYSP now uses the 45ACP Glock. The GAP was fine, but ammo was expensive, even on State Bid.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Im of the same mentality.
Proper defensive pistol starts with a "4" in its caliber designation & makes 1000 fps @ its muzzle. I also like to see 200g of projectile. But I can hedge on that a bit. Bullet dia over velocity to a point.

(I dont even own a 9mm for defense. )

CW
IMO/IME any gun is better than no gun. A 22LR looks pretty darn big and scary when you turn a corner and find yourself looking into one! I sometimes carry a 380. Not a "real" defensive caliber, but since I've stopped hanging out at gang bars, selling crack and messing with other peoples wives I've found the incidents where I need a 50BMG have dropped significantly. ;) Sometimes I think we overthink this stuff a bit and imagination gets the better of us.
 

CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
IMO/IME any gun is better than no gun. A 22LR looks pretty darn big and scary when you turn a corner and find yourself looking into one! I sometimes carry a 380. Not a "real" defensive caliber, but since I've stopped hanging out at gang bars, selling crack and messing with other peoples wives I've found the incidents where I need a 50BMG have dropped significantly. ;) Sometimes I think we overthink this stuff a bit and imagination gets the better of us.
Zero argument with that statement!!

The one thats in your pocket is better then the "better" one ta left at home.

BUT TRAINING Proper equiptment GREATLY reduce those days ya find it a thought ta leave it home..,

ALWAYS Remember HOME invasions are 100% IN HOMES!!

CW
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
ALWAYS Remember HOME invasions are 100% IN HOMES!!
I live in a county the size of Connecticut with a population of about 250,000. Living here for 49 years, only once has a home been invaded that was not related to drug or the drug trade. That one time was two druggies when into a rich farm house to steal money and killed the old couple.

For normal people, being robbed in the Walmart or grocery parking lot is your highest risk. What Bret4207 says works here also.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I live in a county the size of Connecticut with a population of about 250,000. Living here for 49 years, only once has a home been invaded that was not related to drug or the drug trade. That one time was two druggies when into a rich farm house to steal money and killed the old couple.

For normal people, being robbed in the Walmart or grocery parking lot is your highest risk. What Bret4207 says works here also.
Used to be like that here. Also a county larger than Ct, or Mass, with just 122K souls. Home invasions are a weekly thing these days. No one has died I can recall, but a couple BG's have been shot!
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
Home invasions with truly innocent victims are fairly rare, even in high crime areas.

The term “home invasion” gets tossed about rather casually the same way people often incorrectly use the words burglary and robbery. The press loves to use terms like “home invasion” and “carjacking” about as much as they like to use the term “unarmed” (even when it’s false). Outside of the world of criminals, true home invasions are rare. Criminals tend to prey on other criminals.

However, rare doesn’t mean impossible or never. Home invasions (illegally entering an occupied residence and attacking the occupants) do occur, even in rural areas. In fact, some of the more horrific home invasions have occurred in very rural areas.
 

CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
Home invasions with truly innocent victims are fairly rare, even in high crime areas.

The term “home invasion” gets tossed about rather casually the same way people often incorrectly use the words burglary and robbery. The press loves to use terms like “home invasion” and “carjacking” about as much as they like to use the term “unarmed” (even when it’s false). Outside of the world of criminals, true home invasions are rare. Criminals tend to prey on other criminals.

However, rare doesn’t mean impossible or never. Home invasions (illegally entering an occupied residence and attacking the occupants) do occur, even in rural areas. In fact, some of the more horrific home invasions have occurred in very rural areas.
But this does not at all change the intent of my comment.

Don't "just" carry when its convenient for you to carry.

CW
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Used to be like that here. Also a county larger than Ct, or Mass, with just 122K souls. Home invasions are a weekly thing these days. No one has died I can recall, but a couple BG's have been shot!
So sorry to hear that. Don't know what the world is coming too.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
It's a Carjacker Theme Park in inland southern California. Things like that occur with frequency in places where most folks are prohibited from CCW publicly.
One out of eleven adults over 21 have a CPP in WA state. My county is 1 in 9, so that sort of thing doesn't happen much here. Since there is no constitutional carry here, you had better have a CPP.
 

462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
It's a Carjacker Theme Park in inland southern California. Things like that occur with frequency in places where most folks are prohibited from CCW publicly.
One out of eleven adults over 21 have a CPP in WA state. My county is 1 in 9, so that sort of thing doesn't happen much here. Since there is no constitutional carry here, you had better have a CPP.

Now that California is no longer a "may issue" state that should change. However, even with a sheriff who, for eight years, has issued carry permits like my wife hands out Halloween candy, my county's population of 439,000, and an area 1 1/2 times the size of Delaware, has fewer than 4700 licensees. I am not holding my breath that fewer California citizens will continue to be potential victims.