Lil' Gun (The propellant from hell?) in my .357mag.

[Maven]

All, I purchased #2 of Lil' Gun several years ago on closeout in FL, but finding a use for it has been problematic. Internet gossip, particularly "over there" would lead one to believe it is a powder from hell, especially adept at barrel heating.* With that in mind, I thought I'd try a mild load of LG in my Ruger BH with 2 different CB designs and weights. The CB's were an Arsenal ~160gr. PB, which is a lighter clone of a Veral Smith/LBT bullet and a Lee TL "Keithish" CB. The load was 12.3gr. LG for the Arsenal CB and 12.1gr. for the lighter Lee CB. Both were sized to .359" for the Ruger BH.

As I only had 5 rounds of each, it's hard to draw many conclusions, but windage was perfect, the cases clean, and needed almost no effort to eject, and the recoil a bit snappy. Bore leading was minimal. Accuracy, however, is a work in progress. I'll soon retest this, but with 12.5gr. LG, new Starline brass, and my standard for accuracy CB, a RCBS 150gr. PB Keith CB. Btw, after 10 shots, the bbl. was barely warm.


* If you want a hot bbl., load your .357mag. or 44mag. with real BP (FFFg) and you'll know where the phrase "hotter than a pistol" came from.

 

[RicinYakima]

Good luck! While I like and use it for 22 Hornet, I never found a good handgun load. The maximum 32 H&R load with the 85 grain jacketed bullet is 12.0 grains, but is so low pressure and erratic burning that the accuracy is not very good. FWIW

 

[waco]

I use it in my .221 Fireball with 40gr Nosler BT’s

 

[Rally]

I also can’t help with a handgun load, but am using it in 2.5” .410, in fact , just got back with 2 lbs today.

 

[Rick H]

I have only used it in the Hornet.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I swore off that stuff couple years ago. Exact reasons you found.

I will use for my 410 loads today.

 

[358156 hp]

I used it for heavy 45 Colt loads in my Redhawk. In my case, extended use of Lil Gun sandblasted the forcing cone, which is the first step towards erosion. I never chronographed the loads, but I stopped my load development with it when I reached the starting load level used for custom 5 shot revolvers, using a 325 gr Lyman 452651 seated in the lower crimping groove. That level of power is addictive, and I ended up selling the gun when I got to the point where I wanted even more power. That combination was a total beast, yet the fired cases almost fell out of the chambers under their own weight. I now have a 44 mag Redhawk. A plain, boring 44 mag. I've talked with some guys who used Lil' Gun in lever actions and small bore shotguns who never had any issues with it at all. I was playing with fire, and I knew it.

 

[Tomme boy]

It really was not the heat that was the problem using the LG in pistols. It was the erosion of the barrels. Lots of reports of guys burning out barrels Or throats.

I like CW have sworn it off. I will not use it anymore and I have about 8lbs of it. I did look into it to see if I could use it in my 357 but found too many problems with it like in the legend. And I don't load for 410. I have one but a buddy supplies all the rounds I need free to me. 410 was my main gun when I used to rabbit hunt with hounds. But don't do that anymore either.

 

[358156 hp]

I still have the remnants of my last pound. I'll find a use for it. I don't get to shoot as much as I used to back then. I'd like to try it in a carbine.

 

[Rockydoc]

On paper(books, magazines, not targets) Li’l Gun is the bee’s knees, the cat’s pajamas. It gets the highest velocity at the lowest pressure.
So based on those statistics, I bought 2 pounds to develop a load for hunting in my ‘92 Winchester 357 Magnum.

What I got might have been the highest velocity at the lowest pressure, might have even been accurate, but the heat, flash, noise and recoil took all the fun out of it. I found a load using 2400 that is satisfying and satisfactory.

Ed Harris described a load using 4.3 gr Bullseye and a Hunter’s Supply 190 gr CB at 1050fps that is accurate and fun to shoot. That big meplat really goes THWAK when it hits something.

Maybe some day I may discover a use for the Li’l Gun. Suggestions are welcomed.

 

[Ian]

I'm with CW and Tomme. Borrowed a pound, tried it in a couple things, gave it back.

 

[Intel6]

I load for and shoot a lot of things chambered in .22 Hornet. It is a great powder for the Hornet, and it is all I use.

 

[CZ93X62]

22 Hornet is my only use for Lil Gun as well. It does decent work with J-words, but my go-to cast bullet load remains 9.0 x 2400 lit by Rem #6-1/2 prompting #225438 to almost 2400 FPS.

I haven't seen LG heating my CZ's barrel any more than 2400, AA-1680, or WW-296 does.

 

[Tomme boy]

The other problem I and most others found with it was yes it was lower pressure. TILL IT WASN'T. You could be shooting a load and it gave you no pressure signs at all. Then it starts to give you LOWER velocity. Then the next one it blows out a primer. All with the exact same load combo. And it is NOT to be used below 65*. That was when I popped my first primer with it. The day before it was 78* and all was fine. The next day it was 62* and every round popped a primer.

 

[Maven]

I was able to cast, size (to .359"), and load those RCBS 38-150 Keith CB's today using 12gr. of Lil' Gun. For a control, I used 5 of yesterday's empties, but only 5.6gr. of Unique. All of the loads were thrown via a Lyman pistol powder measure, albeit, with different rotors; 7s for the Unique and 8s for Lil' Gun. I'll test these as soon as we get a warmer day. Btw, I rebuilt my target board with new cardboard, so there won't be any doubt where the CB's impact it.

 

[RicinYakima]

The other problem I and most others found with it was yes it was lower pressure. TILL IT WASN'T. You could be shooting a load and it gave you no pressure signs at all. Then it starts to give you LOWER velocity. Then the next one it blows out a primer. All with the exact same load combo. And it is NOT to be used below 65*. That was when I popped my first primer with it. The day before it was 78* and all was fine. The next day it was 62* and every round popped a primer.

I only use Fed 205 small rifle mag primers with LG in the hornet, FWIW.

 

[Tomme boy]

I was using CCI 41's, 450'S in the 350.

 

[Michael]

Reading through the above experiences with Lil'Gun has me wondering, what is it about it that allows it to work so well in the .410 which it was originally developed for, and as a serendipitous option in the 22 Hornet. Neither of which are what could be called high pressure, especially the .410.

Just some random thoughts, and I could be completely wrong by a large margin, even worse than a w.a.g. or passing gas in a elevator. Perhaps the small charge weights of both rounds coupled with what could be considered to be a lot primer force in relationship to the small powder charges, think about larger rounds with higher charge weights. Some of the discussion mentions sandblasting revolver throats (by un-burnt powder ? ). Ok, more powder, less overall force from the primer in relationship to the powder charge. In looking at the load data, it's peak performance in rifle and pistol rounds has a relatively narrow range.

It would seem, at least in my mind, there is something doesn't work, what variable is out of wack, what are we all missing, what is the common variable or denominator that gets it to work well where it does, and gives everyone fits the rest of the time. Light crimp, heavy crimp, no crimp, does it need a faster, more forceful ignition i.e. SRM in a .357, heavier bullets to limit case volume, or some combination of one or more of the above. I could try to pull more ideas out of my bumm, but I'm tired and if I didn't write this down, I will have a hard time getting to sleep thinking about it.

I have no idea, just seems there is specific reason why it works when it does, what needs to adjusted to broaden it's potential and get it to work better where it's being a PITA. I have not tinkered with plugging it into QuickLoad, have fun, I got nuthin.

 

[dale2242]

My son and I bought an 8# jug of it.
The primary use was for 17 Hornet and 22 Hornet.
It`s going take a long time to shoot it up at this rate.
So far, it`s working well in his 17 Hornet.
It wants to over pressure if the ammo is left in the hot sun.
I need to do more load development with it in the 22 Hornet.

 

[RBHarter]

In 410 there is zero air space in fact charges are somewhat compressed and are a basically solid mass from some time between the primer ignition and the crimp starting to move. Unlike the sister shot shells but exactly like the steel shot mostly there's no give .

I know zip about about the 22s etc under 222 other than there's a tiny case pushing a single ball weight bullet .

The 264 WM with a 120-140 gr cast shares Unique max charges with 1-1/4 oz 2-3/4" 12 ga .......26 gr doesn't occupy a lot of space in a belted WM case . I haven't looked at 458 but 45-70 only uses about half that . Along with almost everything else .

4227 , 4198 , and H110 are used in 410 also but they are full of nearly so in the Hornet and not if I recall from passive intake not really top performance choices .
At the risk of going sci-fi..... I'd bet it has something to do with chamber/pressure vessel shape and how the flame front and pressure wave(s) build .