Winelover
North Central Arkansas
Those are my sentiments also. Until there is published data from the powder manufactures, I will never consider duplex or triplex loadings.
Loading for the M14/M1A
- Thread starter Ian
- Start date
Those are my sentiments also. Until there is published data from the powder manufactures, I will never consider duplex or triplex loadings.
Ian
Notorious member
I tried a new bullet today at my home range (50 yards). It's light, 160 grains fully-dressed, has no crimp groove and has very little bearing surface in the case. Since my M1A acts like it has no feed ramps whatsoever, FN bullets with no groove for crimping are a recipe for hammering the bullets all the way into the case and jamming up the works, and I started out single-loading these by pushing them into the chamber by hand, letting the bolt down gently on the case and slapping the operating rod into battery. If there's one thing I'd change on the M1A it would be to put some REAL feed ramps on them with just a little tiny bit of slope instead of these practically vertical jobbies that have given me pure hell since the beginning.
Anyway, single-loaded with 32 grains of IMR 3031 put three into an inch with two touching, and I proceeded to try them from the magazine, resulting in two total jams slamming the bullets all the way into the brass. The last five that did manage to feed shot a group I couldn't over with my hand. I partially ejected a couple of them after they fed themselves just to see where the bullet was, I noticed they all had popped forward about 1/16" or so from where they were originally seated and crimped, indicating they're moving out of the case and fully contacting the throat when self-loading.
Ejection and bolt lock were flawless, though, and only a tiny bit of soot was on the case necks. Bore was clean. I'll have to run some of these bullets through my bolt guns to give the design a better run, and go back to the drawing board for the M1A bullet. I may try a different alloy in the NOE 311-155 mould to see if I can get the noses small enough to chamber and gas check shank small enough to get Hornady checks on them.
Anyway, single-loaded with 32 grains of IMR 3031 put three into an inch with two touching, and I proceeded to try them from the magazine, resulting in two total jams slamming the bullets all the way into the brass. The last five that did manage to feed shot a group I couldn't over with my hand. I partially ejected a couple of them after they fed themselves just to see where the bullet was, I noticed they all had popped forward about 1/16" or so from where they were originally seated and crimped, indicating they're moving out of the case and fully contacting the throat when self-loading.
Ejection and bolt lock were flawless, though, and only a tiny bit of soot was on the case necks. Bore was clean. I'll have to run some of these bullets through my bolt guns to give the design a better run, and go back to the drawing board for the M1A bullet. I may try a different alloy in the NOE 311-155 mould to see if I can get the noses small enough to chamber and gas check shank small enough to get Hornady checks on them.
How do you know anything was ignored?
A couple things. There was lots of window dressing but little detail. That alone keeps my interest pretty low. The fact you saY it was ignored simply because nobody went "Ooooh, ahhhhh" over scant details makes me wonder if you aren't seeking accolades that will tend to be found in short supply here.
Tell the whole story instead of giving the info found on the back cover of the book and people might just show more interest. I don't know about others but I don't give rave reviews because I read a press release.
A couple things. There was lots of window dressing but little detail. That alone keeps my interest pretty low. The fact you saY it was ignored simply because nobody went "Ooooh, ahhhhh" over scant details makes me wonder if you aren't seeking accolades that will tend to be found in short supply here.
Tell the whole story instead of giving the info found on the back cover of the book and people might just show more interest. I don't know about others but I don't give rave reviews because I read a press release.
asbcowner
Administrator
Just saying this once. This forum was founded on the ideal that information was to be shared freely. In order to have a free exchange of ideas and information the forum will not tolerate behavior intended to tear down others. That behavior does not further the knowledge base and actually stifles contribution and the sharing of ideas.
If you don't have something positive to add to the discussion then please remain silent.
If you don't have something positive to add to the discussion then please remain silent.
Winelover
North Central Arkansas
Been using X dies since their introduction for 308W, 243W & 338W. Highly recommend them.
I just finished prepping military brass that is now on it's 14th. loading, for my AR-10. Haven't had to trim since the initial prepping. I size my boolits to .3125 diameter. Necks are still tight, as well as primer pockets. I do loose an occasional one to split necks.......but I don't anneal, either.
Ian
Notorious member
I don't know if this is normal or not, but my M1A has a feeding hiccup. If I release the bolt on a loaded magazine and "follow it home" slowly with my hand on the op rod handle, the bullet nose jams on the bolt face recess and stops the bolt hard every time. Does it with factory ammo, even with Ballistic Tip bullets. It's worse on the left column. On the right column I can usually get the bullet tip to jump off the feed ramp and chamber just by slapping the bottom of the magazine, but the left side jams hard unless it is powered home from bolt rebound of an actual shot, which damages even jacketed bullet noses. I got two fresh Springfield Armory 20-round magazines and this still happens. One thing I noticed is the front of the magazine doesn't fully bottom against the bottom of the receiver, so I modified the op rod spring guide to lift the magazine farther up by about 3/32", just enough to hold it firmly up against the receiver. That helped a bunch. Now, I can follow the round home and the bullet tip usually kicks right into the chamber...but not always. When letting rounds slam home hard from a fully-retracted bolt, they all chamber reliably but only pointed bullets with fat ogives will go in without being severely deformed from hitting the edge of the barrel recess. When they hit hard, it's enough to actually bend the bullet/case neck slightly, or telescope the bullet into the case.
Also, I noticed the barrel is over-clocked by about 3-4 degrees, putting the left side feed ramps ever-so-slightly low, which exacerbates the problem because the nose hits the edge of the scallop instead of the middle. Over-all cartridge length and ogive radius are pretty critical to proper feeding, as there needs to be a certain timing between the case shoulder guiding off of the magazine's side reinforcing rib (which keeps the nose up) and the nose hitting the feed ramp. I fooled with this for several hours last night and think I have a winning combination now using the 311679, finding the exact COAL needed to make things bump-and-shuffle like they need to. If it doesn't rain me out this weekend I'll try to shoot a few and see how it does.
Also, I noticed the barrel is over-clocked by about 3-4 degrees, putting the left side feed ramps ever-so-slightly low, which exacerbates the problem because the nose hits the edge of the scallop instead of the middle. Over-all cartridge length and ogive radius are pretty critical to proper feeding, as there needs to be a certain timing between the case shoulder guiding off of the magazine's side reinforcing rib (which keeps the nose up) and the nose hitting the feed ramp. I fooled with this for several hours last night and think I have a winning combination now using the 311679, finding the exact COAL needed to make things bump-and-shuffle like they need to. If it doesn't rain me out this weekend I'll try to shoot a few and see how it does.
Ian
Notorious member
Well, back at it today, with the 311679s out of water-quenched 3 stick-on, 2 clip-on WW, aged to 19 bhn and coming in at 208.7 grains nekkid. Only powder I tried was IMR 4320, but I don't think it's bumping the bullets hard enough. My 50-yard hand-fed groups hovered around an inch and a half, and those fed from the magazine had a bunch of flyers showing slightly elongated holes in the target. Part of what was going on was when bumping the charge from 35 to 36 grains the bullets were breaking the crimp and pulling up to 1/8" out of the cases when chambering on their own, too much port pressure (need to adust the Shuster some for this load). Oddly, the bullets still came out with the cartridge and re-chambered easily, but they sure did make flyers when I shot them. Function was flawless and the noses didn't get dinged too badly since I fixed the magazine seating issues and went with the SA mags.
Next I'm going to use a smaller expander (.308" isn't providing enough tension even with .3098" bullets) and switch to IMR 3031 to bump these long, silhouette-style bullets a little harder into the throat.
Next I'm going to use a smaller expander (.308" isn't providing enough tension even with .3098" bullets) and switch to IMR 3031 to bump these long, silhouette-style bullets a little harder into the throat.
Ian
Notorious member
My X-die arrived a couple of days ago, and I'm a little disappointed with how much it squeezes the neck down. With the decapping plug removed, case neck OUTSIDE diameter is sized to .330", leaving the inside .301". I was hoping for more like .334/.305, but I can work on it with some sandpaper.
I took the M1A out again with the same bullets as last time, sized .3098" as before, still using the .308" expander, but this time I used a firm roll crimp and did a workup with IMR 3031. That did the trick nicely, turning in a 1/2" 50 yard group with 34 grains and opening up a bit with 35 and 36 grains. Looks like the switch to faster powder with that alloy was the right thing to do. Using SL-68.1, and having cleaned the bore thoroughly with Ed's Red to get out the heavy accumulation of powder fouling and Felix lube out, my first two shots went into the same hole, and the following three made it just a little bit round and ragged, quite happy with that. Now that I have it fouled with the SL-68.1, we'll see if the next outing does the same thing and score one more positive check for the lube. Function was 100% and cases were obturating nicely even at only 34 grains. I put the factory gas plug back in it when switching to 3031 as it's in the middle of the correct burn rate for port pressure.
Shooting through the range attenuator prevents use of the Magneto Speed chronograph, and it was too cloudy to use my Chrony, so I have no idea of the velocity of any of these loads. I'll be loading more at 34 grains and doing some chronograph testing, if they're over 2K fps and hold as well at 100 yards as they do at 50 I might stop right there.
I took the M1A out again with the same bullets as last time, sized .3098" as before, still using the .308" expander, but this time I used a firm roll crimp and did a workup with IMR 3031. That did the trick nicely, turning in a 1/2" 50 yard group with 34 grains and opening up a bit with 35 and 36 grains. Looks like the switch to faster powder with that alloy was the right thing to do. Using SL-68.1, and having cleaned the bore thoroughly with Ed's Red to get out the heavy accumulation of powder fouling and Felix lube out, my first two shots went into the same hole, and the following three made it just a little bit round and ragged, quite happy with that. Now that I have it fouled with the SL-68.1, we'll see if the next outing does the same thing and score one more positive check for the lube. Function was 100% and cases were obturating nicely even at only 34 grains. I put the factory gas plug back in it when switching to 3031 as it's in the middle of the correct burn rate for port pressure.
Shooting through the range attenuator prevents use of the Magneto Speed chronograph, and it was too cloudy to use my Chrony, so I have no idea of the velocity of any of these loads. I'll be loading more at 34 grains and doing some chronograph testing, if they're over 2K fps and hold as well at 100 yards as they do at 50 I might stop right there.
Ian
Notorious member
Off to the big range today for some 100-yard work and chronographing with the Magneto Speed. I took ten rounds of the same 34-grain load from yesterday, and ten more with 1/2 grain of Dacron added just to see how it would affect things. My non-Dacron load threw the first one (dangit, lube flyer) and put the other nine into 2.5", averaging 2,040 fps with 12 SD. Then for the surprise, the first Dacron load came out at nearly 2200 fps and missed the 2'x 18" backer entirely. The next nine scattered around in about a ten inch group, averaging something like 2120 fps with a pretty significant SD, I don't remember the numbers now. No more Dacron for me in this rig. On the good side, function was completely flawless and the bore only has a light antimony haze in a few spots. I'm pretty happy with the 34-grain load and may play with sized diameter some to see if I can't tighten things up a bit, maybe even drop back to 33.5 grains. Pushing a 211-grain (dressed) bullet out of a .308 at nearly 2050 fps is doing pretty good, and at 19 bhn ought to have plenty of smack-down power. I know one huge pig who would agree already.
F
freebullet
Guest
Dacron and fillers are akin to duplex loading, maybe worse at times. I don't think it's worth it unless it shows great savings, accuracy, safety, & consistency.
You might try playing with the oal too.
You might try playing with the oal too.
Ian
Notorious member
The Dacron was purely an experiment, at these loading levels and density levels I didn't think it was needed at all, but wanted to confirm. I was surprised by how poorly the dacron loads shot, and how much recoil and velocity were increased. Never know until you try, eh? The way the M1A bangs the powder charge around, any freedom of movement in the case can be a position disadvantage to the powder and change burn characteristics from hand-racking vs. self-loaded fire. I have virtually no play room for OAL with this bullet, if it's seated out any farther it won't fit the magazine, and if seated in any farther the gas check is below the neck and the front "band" formed by sizing the bullet loses its "pilot" in the throat, something I feel is important with over six thousandths loaded chamber neck clearance. I've battled functional reliability with now eight bullets and this one so far is the only one to go 100%. Also, it's the only one to get into the chamber reliably without getting bent/dinged/scraped so badly that self-loaded accuracy is out the window. I picked up a Lee C312-155 and cast a bunch of WD 50/50 bullets last night to try out in this thing, but this rifle likes the bullets loaded very long for best feeding and the initial testing with some "green" bullets doesn't look to be quite as good as those 210-grainers. I'm also not super-stoked about that .307" nose base, there's just nothing to pilot the bullet into until it has moved about .100", and a LOT can go wrong in that first bit if you give the bullet any clearance with the throat.
One thing I haven't tried yet is loading larger-diameter bullets, except for the .311" 311041s I started out with. Maybe I should. I think Joe and Bob are both running theirs at .312"+ and somehow it works, but I haven't had much luck doing that in my bolt guns without getting a bad lead ledge in the front of the chamber, something that will definitely be dangerous with an M1A if it happens.
One thing I haven't tried yet is loading larger-diameter bullets, except for the .311" 311041s I started out with. Maybe I should. I think Joe and Bob are both running theirs at .312"+ and somehow it works, but I haven't had much luck doing that in my bolt guns without getting a bad lead ledge in the front of the chamber, something that will definitely be dangerous with an M1A if it happens.
F
freebullet
Guest
Yeah I figured mag length would be an issue. It has been a limiting factor in every semi I've played with except the sks.
With dacron in a 308 autoloader, I don't think I'd even try that. The risk- reward just isn't there. Ringing the barrel or worse would be a much greater risk in the semi.
With dacron in a 308 autoloader, I don't think I'd even try that. The risk- reward just isn't there. Ringing the barrel or worse would be a much greater risk in the semi.
Ian
Notorious member
Brad, that's just about right, maybe a full grain in this case because I used about 1.5x the Dacron density we'd normally use in this application to ensure it didn't get compacted from all the slamming around in the gun.
FB, I don't advocate anyone does something with which they do not feel 100% safe and comfy, but I had a pretty good idea about what I was doing based on plenty of past experience in a variety of cartridges and had a very wide margin of safety. Plus, I'm far from the first person who's Darcron'd light stick powder loads for their M1A to see about improving the burn. I'm also not the first person to quickly abandon it because it showed a negative improvement.
FB, I don't advocate anyone does something with which they do not feel 100% safe and comfy, but I had a pretty good idea about what I was doing based on plenty of past experience in a variety of cartridges and had a very wide margin of safety. Plus, I'm far from the first person who's Darcron'd light stick powder loads for their M1A to see about improving the burn. I'm also not the first person to quickly abandon it because it showed a negative improvement.
Ian
Notorious member
Took the SA out again today to try the Lee C312-155 whatchamacallit with the real lube groove. This bullet feeds 100% flawlessly and has a convenient crimp groove, and the nose profile is a pretty good match for this rifle...but there are two problems. One, if I want the nose to be anywhere near the throat, I have to size .3095" and crimp in the only lube groove it has, which is too shallow to begin with. Tumble lube? Maybe. Two, I can size .311" and crimp in the intended groove and let the metal rake off on the chamber entrance while the nose jumps almost a quarter inch to the rifling. The third option, sizing smaller and jumping it, didn't make sense because it invites even further wongoness. So I went with option two with 34 and 36 grains of IMR 4320. Everything worked just wonderfully except the accuracy, which with 36 grains was just good enough to keep them within the margins of a sheet of typing paper at 50 yards.
The Schuster adjustable gas valve worked flawlessly as always, highly recommended if you shoot cast in one of these things. Next, I'm going to use some BLL, size .3095", put in a .033" neck sizer bushing, and crimp in the lube groove.
The Schuster adjustable gas valve worked flawlessly as always, highly recommended if you shoot cast in one of these things. Next, I'm going to use some BLL, size .3095", put in a .033" neck sizer bushing, and crimp in the lube groove.
Ian
Notorious member
Well, the BLL experiment is a bust because my .309" die is pushing these harder bullets out at .310" and I can't load them long. Instead, I loaded up some AM 31-157Gs and sent those downrange with the same 36 grain load of 4320. This time I got a four inch group of ten at 50 yards. Still going backwards, this alloy, bullet weight, and powder are NOT getting along at all.