Model 57-1 timing issue
- Thread starter Matt_G
- Start date
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
OK, I guess I'm seeing the cylinder from down the muzzle?
Before you start spending money, it looks like the throat is well within the range of the forcing cone. How much play is in that cylinder when it's locked up? Will it still align when the bullet bridges the gap from the cylinder to the barrel?
That may not be as bad as you think it is.
Before you start spending money, it looks like the throat is well within the range of the forcing cone. How much play is in that cylinder when it's locked up? Will it still align when the bullet bridges the gap from the cylinder to the barrel?
That may not be as bad as you think it is.
Dusty Bannister
Well-Known Member
I am seeing that the center of the small hole is off set to the same side as the deviation of alignment with the bore. Top photo, things seem to be aligned to about 11:00. Bottom photo things seem to align at 3:00. Sort of like looking in a rifle scope without having the eye in the proper position. And it is also possible I am totally missing what you are trying to show.
What does a range rod tell you about alignment of the cylinder to the center of the bore?
What does a range rod tell you about alignment of the cylinder to the center of the bore?
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
In all my years of pistol shooting, I have never looked down the bore to look for problems. Alignment of the cylinder chambers with the barrel in a vertical direction is dependent on the machining of the cylinder pin hole and the individual cylinders as well as the machining of the pin hole in the frame and the barrel threads in the frame. On a double action, the fit of the crane to the frame is another factor. Horizontal alignment is again, machining of the bolt, the bolt slot in the frame and the mating bolt notches in the cylinder.
Your barrel and cylinder seem to be out of alignment at a 45 degree angle assuming you are holding the gun with the butt down in the photo. If the butt is at a 45, then your cylinder/barrel are off in a horizontal direction. I notice that it is cylinder is to the right on one photo and to the left in the other. Assuming same positioning of the gun in the photos, that would imply a worn bolt, worn bolt slot in the frame or worn bolt notches in the cylinder. But if the pistol position is not the same (and I suspect it is not based upon the marks I can see on the breechface) and the offset is only in one direction, right or left, and being a double action S&W, I suspect that this could be due to a bent crane. The worst thing anyone can do with a double action Smith or Colt, is swing the cylinder shut by snapping the gun to the right like all the idiot bad guys did in Hollywood. The inertia will bend the crane and ruin the gun. I've only watch someone do that once while standing in front of me. It was in Mexico and a friend's father was showing me his S&W (illegal as can be in Mexico) which he was quite proud of. He reloaded it while standing there, spun the cylinder and snapped it shut with a flick of his wrist. I knew that telling him not to do that would have been very insulting, especially with his son standing there.
I have never known anyone that needed to have a crane straightened. I would think it is possible. What I don't know is how it bends. Does the cylinder pin bend, does the crane twist, or a combination of the two? The other concern is it was done frequently and has elongated the hole in the breech face for the cylinder locking pin or ruined either the pin or it's fit in the cylinder pin.
To P&P's point, you can get a .41 cal range rod and slide it down the barrel and see if it easily enters each of the chambers. Put some force, CW and CCW on the cylinder to see if the rod stops at the chamber mouth. If that does not happen, I'd take it to the range and bench it at 50 yds with some good ammo to see how it groups. If it does not shave lead and groups withing 2 inches at 50 yds, I'd call it good to go.
I hope that you don't need to do anything, and she shoots fine for you.
Your barrel and cylinder seem to be out of alignment at a 45 degree angle assuming you are holding the gun with the butt down in the photo. If the butt is at a 45, then your cylinder/barrel are off in a horizontal direction. I notice that it is cylinder is to the right on one photo and to the left in the other. Assuming same positioning of the gun in the photos, that would imply a worn bolt, worn bolt slot in the frame or worn bolt notches in the cylinder. But if the pistol position is not the same (and I suspect it is not based upon the marks I can see on the breechface) and the offset is only in one direction, right or left, and being a double action S&W, I suspect that this could be due to a bent crane. The worst thing anyone can do with a double action Smith or Colt, is swing the cylinder shut by snapping the gun to the right like all the idiot bad guys did in Hollywood. The inertia will bend the crane and ruin the gun. I've only watch someone do that once while standing in front of me. It was in Mexico and a friend's father was showing me his S&W (illegal as can be in Mexico) which he was quite proud of. He reloaded it while standing there, spun the cylinder and snapped it shut with a flick of his wrist. I knew that telling him not to do that would have been very insulting, especially with his son standing there.
I have never known anyone that needed to have a crane straightened. I would think it is possible. What I don't know is how it bends. Does the cylinder pin bend, does the crane twist, or a combination of the two? The other concern is it was done frequently and has elongated the hole in the breech face for the cylinder locking pin or ruined either the pin or it's fit in the cylinder pin.
To P&P's point, you can get a .41 cal range rod and slide it down the barrel and see if it easily enters each of the chambers. Put some force, CW and CCW on the cylinder to see if the rod stops at the chamber mouth. If that does not happen, I'd take it to the range and bench it at 50 yds with some good ammo to see how it groups. If it does not shave lead and groups withing 2 inches at 50 yds, I'd call it good to go.
I hope that you don't need to do anything, and she shoots fine for you.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
1st thing to determine is what Matt is looking at. 2nd thing is, if he thinks it's an alignment issue, is to figure out if it's an optical illusion from camera position in the barrel. As one of the posters above said, "What does a range rod say?"
I would say this is all a camera angle issue, to use a camera to look at something like this the camera has to be centered in the barrel, which it is apparent it is not just looking a the photos. In both cases the firing pin hole is offset opposite the "thick" wall of the cylinder, imagine looking at the first photo down the barrel, the camera is offset to the upper left, shift the photo in your mind to the upper left making the cylinder wall equal all the way around and the firing pin hole would be centered. As mentioned a range rod would be the proof.
Edit to add, no matter what cylinder hole you would be looking at the firing pin should always be at the same place in the barrel center, which it is not in the photos.
Edit to add, no matter what cylinder hole you would be looking at the firing pin should always be at the same place in the barrel center, which it is not in the photos.
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No camera here that will fit down the bore, but I checked visually--I get a similar effect with my Model 58. Seems to be a parallax issue. I'd test it at 25 yards, if nothing is grossly haywire test it at 100 yards and compare groups. If the crane is bent, the groups will be consistently off but you may not see the group move enough til you get to 100 yards.
Worst case, maybe sell it to me. I'm going to start working on S&W revolvers (on the "if you want something done without waiting 3 years for minor repairs, do it yourself" principle).
Worst case, maybe sell it to me. I'm going to start working on S&W revolvers (on the "if you want something done without waiting 3 years for minor repairs, do it yourself" principle).
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
The cylinder on a S&W DA will "self-align" (to a degree) when the bullet enters the forcing cone. If the initial misalignment is minor, and the gun shoots fine.......who cares?
On a Colt, the cylinder is locked tight at the moment of ignition (or at least it should be). S&W's and Rugers have a bit of tolerance to the cylinder when it locks up.
On a Colt, the cylinder is locked tight at the moment of ignition (or at least it should be). S&W's and Rugers have a bit of tolerance to the cylinder when it locks up.
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Dusty Bannister
Well-Known Member
There was a nice article on Revolver repair in the Fouling Shot a few years ago. I can not put my hands on that issue at this time though. I do not recall it being mentioned on the CBA Forum though.
Matt_G
Curmudgeon in training
First let me explain the pictures.
They were taken with a Teslong Otoscope.
I just shoved it down the barrel and was looking to see if it was leaded up and then decided to see how well it aligned when locked up.
As usual, I have learned a few things from you guys.
1) These were NOT taken with the hammer locked in SA.
They were taken with the hammer fallen as if it had just been fired.
So that's one thing I just learned.
What I was concerned with was the fact I could see significantly more of the cylinder wall on one side of the forcing cone versus the other.
BTW, I did look at it just now with the hammer locked in SA and it looks the same.
2) I do not have a range rod to check the alignment with.
3) Rob, I was holding the gun in the same position for both pictures and just twisted the camera in the bore.
That is what caused the rotation you are seeing.
4) What Rob and Ian said above about not looking for issues is really hitting home here. <sheepish grin>
The gun locks up fine and it stays locked while the hammer falls and the trigger is held back.
In other words, there is no issue here.
I am going to stop looking at this kind of stuff unless I have a specific problem to fix.
They were taken with a Teslong Otoscope.
I just shoved it down the barrel and was looking to see if it was leaded up and then decided to see how well it aligned when locked up.
As usual, I have learned a few things from you guys.
1) These were NOT taken with the hammer locked in SA.
They were taken with the hammer fallen as if it had just been fired.
So that's one thing I just learned.
What I was concerned with was the fact I could see significantly more of the cylinder wall on one side of the forcing cone versus the other.
BTW, I did look at it just now with the hammer locked in SA and it looks the same.
2) I do not have a range rod to check the alignment with.
3) Rob, I was holding the gun in the same position for both pictures and just twisted the camera in the bore.
That is what caused the rotation you are seeing.
4) What Rob and Ian said above about not looking for issues is really hitting home here. <sheepish grin>
Ian and Rob, that is exactly what I am going to do.
The gun locks up fine and it stays locked while the hammer falls and the trigger is held back.
In other words, there is no issue here.
I am going to stop looking at this kind of stuff unless I have a specific problem to fix.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
" I am going to stop looking at this kind of stuff unless I have a specific problem to fix."
/\ That's the right course /\
/\ That's the right course /\
RBHarter
West Central AR
K.I.S.S . The "S's" are at liberty to trade places as needed.
Keep
It
Stupid
Simple .
It is kind of like "when in doubt wash it out" .
Sometimes, probably more often than not , the cheapest, simplest solution is the one that you needed in the first place.
Until at least 1993 the unwritten rule for GM vehicles was "there are electrical bugs , fix one and another one takes it's place always . If the bug is that the glove box light or a vanity mirror light leave it alone .
I have this Savage rifle .......
Keep
It
Stupid
Simple .
It is kind of like "when in doubt wash it out" .
Sometimes, probably more often than not , the cheapest, simplest solution is the one that you needed in the first place.
Until at least 1993 the unwritten rule for GM vehicles was "there are electrical bugs , fix one and another one takes it's place always . If the bug is that the glove box light or a vanity mirror light leave it alone .
I have this Savage rifle .......
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
That quote reminds me of the old days with vacuum tube TV sets. You could take suspected tubes to the hardware store where they would have a testing machine. If it was bad, the usually had one in stock and back home you went to watch Tom & Jerry. But, the problem was all the other tubes were just as long in the tooth as the one that failed. So, when you put that new and very healthy tube back into the set, it would inevitably blow one or two more of the other tubes. Hence, no cartoons that day.
L Ross
Well-Known Member
Even worse, if you lived in an 1863 built uninsulated two story farm house heated only by a fuel oil space heater. Just as you were settling in for a long boring Wisconsin Winter the temperature shock from turning on the old cabinet TV in the icy cold house would blow the tubes. Mom and Dad did have a pot to piss in and a window but that was about it. Mom stayed home to raise three of us kids and Dad was working in a Kraut factory for a buck sixty and hour. Calling Roy, the TV repairman with his big leather case full of tubes was often delayed for months.That quote reminds me of the old days with vacuum tube TV sets. You could take suspected tubes to the hardware store where they would have a testing machine. If it was bad, the usually had one in stock and back home you went to watch Tom & Jerry. But, the problem was all the other tubes were just as long in the tooth as the one that failed. So, when you put that new and very healthy tube back into the set, it would inevitably blow one or two more of the other tubes. Hence, no cartoons that day.
When that happened a plastic ivory colored transistor radio was placed on the buffet and we listened to Green Bay Packer games in Fall and late Fall and then, well then it just sucked. I sure love my cushy life now.
Guess in a way I was lucky, my dad was the TV repair man. Problem with that was we never got a new TV, he just kept fixing the old one. I think we were one of the last families in the area watching B&W TV, seems to me it wasn't till I was in college that dad fixed up a color tv trade in and brought it home.
